Cowboys 0 - Wild Horse 1

[sheepguide]

Feral animal does not require a season.  Nor should there ever be. 

I wouldnt recomend going out and shooting any prior to there ever being a season and making it open knowledge as I think your saying its feral and doesnt need a season wont help as the charges are laid.

[sheepguide]

Jimmy, I have my own horses and I see you are a horse guy as well but if you have spent some time in certain areas of the province you have to aggree that there is a problem and soemthing needs to be done about it.  I don't like the idea of running around shooting horses either but what do you do.  I would prefer to have more elk and sheep habitat myself than a bunch of wild horses.  I saw piles of them when I was hunting Grizz between Hinton and Rob and although I found it very cool to find them they sure left a mess everywhere.

So what do you think has been the largest cause of elk population decreases in the Ya Ha tinda areas? Its affected more than any other area of Alberta and guess what very very few horses. Why would hosres be the first thing to do to help sheep and elk when they arent even in the area of the biggest issues?

Guys cant seem to see that the same issues are affecting both areas with horses and without but the first band wagon they jump on is "get rid of the horses". Maybe we should tackle the major factors that area affecting all areas not stuff that will only help certain areas.

We need to work a bit on more "control" on horse populations but tackle the real issues hurting poulations instead of wasting time and money on the small picture in hopes that it may help.

Oh and Nube if you want to see true horse numbers come for a drive in the areas im in every day out here and ill show you horses in many multiples of what you saw at Hinton and Robb!!!!

[sheepguide]

Darcy elk have been all over those mountain longer than you or I have been alive.  No one said anything about elk in this thread.  Elk problems are soley to do with predators nothing else. All those horses are feral just as wild boar wild dogs etc.....   I am not arguing over this.  I never said they destroyed anything either. Just that they all should be caught and removed from were they should have never been put in the first place.

Is this your opinion on every introduced living and non living species in Alberta? Should we kill all the Brook trout, golden trout, brown trout?

[sheepguide]

I brought it up as i wanted to see if you would be inteligent enough to come up with a logical reasoning and show what horses are actually harming and what issues they are creating in a negative way. Like i told you in that PM you wish to bring up here, if someone could come up with proof of the overwelming harm the horses do out there i wouldnt get so touchy on the subject but most guys that voice the loudest opinions against these horse are just like you and never really spent much time in the heart of the horse populations. And i bring up the areas west of me as the vast majority of albertas horse population is from the Burnt Timber to the North Sask. which guess what... is generaly west of wher I live!

To just say they should be gone because they are feral is not much of a reason. Like I said should we get rid of every  Brook trout (Introduced in Alberta in 1903), golden trout (Introduced into Alberta in 1959), brown trout(introduced to Alberta in 1924) because all of them arent native to Alberta either but have become a major part of our water ways just as the horse have become a part of our west country for longer than you, your dad and Grandfather have been alive.

[JIMMY 808]

I can shoot a Deer or Elk during a hunting season but not a wild horse.  The government SRD must not consider them feral   at all. 

[sheepguide]

You keep comparing animals and know fish that were introduced by our government.  Big difference. Heck add pheasant while you are at it. So why is it they want the wild pigs and all farmed animals that escape gone if they are no different then the native animals or even your wild horses?  Why is there laws that you can not introduce animals to water or nature in our province or contry?

If wild pigs didnt cause so much damage no one would have an issue with them free ranging. It's not the fact they are feral it's the fact they reproduce so fast and devastate so much. It's that's same damage that people can't show horses do! And as I stated if could be shown I'd be first in line for removing them! And if they are really concerned on introducing any farm animals they wouldnt allow free range grazing of livestock. The animals that they are most concerned about is know disease transmitting animals and ones such as pigs that can cause vast damage in short time.

And guess what horses are no different than pheasants and the fish I mentioned. They aren't native and are all wild in some portion of the world. Would it have been ok Justin if the horses were introduced from a herd classed as non feral? All the same concerns would be there but you guys couldn't use the feral part as your excuse as to why they shouldn't be there.

Id once like to see someone man up and either show a actual negative impact that having a horse population is having on Alberta or just come out and say they personally hate them out there and want them gone!

[nube]

Too me it sounds like your taking the horses side here Darcy.  To be honest it surprises me.  Nothing wrong with it but tell me why you would prefer to keep the horse numbers up?  In the past I have heard you say otherwise if memory serves correct.  Like I said before I don't mind the odd horse around but really I don't have a use for a bunch of horses running around wild.  I find it interesting that everyone wants to protect them so much.

[sheepguide]

Too me it sounds like your taking the horses side here Darcy.  To be honest it surprises me.  Nothing wrong with it but tell me why you would prefer to keep the horse numbers up?  In the past I have heard you say otherwise if memory serves correct.  Like I said before I don't mind the odd horse around but really I don't have a use for a bunch of horses running around wild.  I find it interesting that everyone wants to protect them so much.

I am taking the horses side Nube. I've never changed my stance on that. I always push the fact they should be controlled but not eliminated. My family has lived in the heart of the horse country for generations and I travel that country more than 95% of Albertans. I personally have not seen any proof nor has any anti horse guy shown any proof that them horses shouldn't be out there. They are part of they west country and have been for at least 10 decades. 99.5% of them horses haven't seen the hand of man for probably 60-80 generations. So to me that makes them Wild!

There are far larger concerns out there that need to be delt with.

Maybe you should come down for a tour one day and really see what is happening out there prior to making assumptions and convictions. I guarantee you will be surprised what you actually see.

You will also notice most that write off the wild horses have very little to do with the country they live in. They have made there decisions based on a lot of hear say and fear mongering!

[nube]

Darcy, your getting pissy again!  I was going to keep my mouth shut after my first comment because I figured you would get this way AGAIN. I simply wanted to know why you thought the way you did.  I didn't say they all needed to be wiped out.  I feel a bit of the same way you do.  They have their place and it is cool to have a few of them around but as you stated there are concentrations of them that need thinning.  Out where I was Grizz hunting is one location I am thinking.  I have seen what an area looks like with a herd of horses so don't think I am an idiot with no experience. 

[sheepguide]

Darcy, your getting pissy again!  I was going to keep my mouth shut after my first comment because I figured you would get this way AGAIN. I simply wanted to know why you thought the way you did.  I didn't say they all needed to be wiped out.  I feel a bit of the same way you do.  They have their place and it is cool to have a few of them around but as you stated there are concentrations of them that need thinning.  Out where I was Grizz hunting is one location I am thinking.  I have seen what an area looks like with a herd of horses so don't think I am an idiot with no experience.

Not getting pissy at all just stating my thoughts and trying to give reasoning on it. But its tough when the people(not meaning you here Nube!) your discussing things with have no reasoning to their thoughts and opinions other then they just shouldnt be there. If someone is going to condem something such as the horses they better be knowledable enough on the subject to have a little bit of reasoning and proof that it is required. My kids even grew out of the "just cause" mentality years ago!!

Nube I just simply invited you out to go through an area with 10 times the horse population as the stuff you mention that you hunted Grizz in and ill show you my reasoning behind my  thoughts on the horses.

SG

[nube]

I will respectfully decline Darcy.  I am sure you have your thoughts and I have mine.  I don't doubt you think there is not a problem.  I don't doubt you know a lot on the subject.  You are right that many don't know the facts.  I would bet that most would still like to have a few horses around but the numbers range around 1000+ head in Alberta and in a few concentrated areas that is a good number.  I don't like having that many and I bet if it got put to a vote of knocking the numbers down a bit I would think that the majority would vote yes.  Especially for those that have tried hunting in those areas where the horse has lived and seen it first hand. 
Either way we are not going to agree with each other on this.  It has been debated many times on AO.  There is a quite a bit of info on there with some good reads if you have the time.  Pesaonally I am on the shoot 75% of the herd side and that's all i got to say about that. 

[sheepguide]

  I don't like having that many and I bet if it got put to a vote of knocking the numbers down a bit I would think that the majority would vote yes.  Especially for those that have tried hunting in those areas where the horse has lived and seen it first hand. 

See Nube I agree here with you totally. And I too have preached that horse numbers need to be controlled. But at what number?

 Alot of people do want the horses gone due to the hunting situations and such they see when out west and what they interpet is due to horses. But Is it truly because of the horses? I see your like the rest and shy away from tackling the question I always raise about the Yaha and many other places! Hunters are witnessing the exact same situations but without the horse herds. So are people justafied to just say the horses should be gone? Im trying to show that many people that you put on your side are anti horse but for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with anything caused by horses.
Everyone now packs a video camera or still camera while in the outdoors but yet on all the threads bashing the horses not one person has showed anything to make people see this affect. Two of the biggest haters of the horses on AO have a friggen TV show but yet cant seem to show any footage to back up any claims. Maybe if guys would start documneting the damage and negative affects it would be easier for other to beleive it is happening and would be a huge step in getting herd reductions.
So I challenge you and Justin and anyone else that blame the west country horses that all the times you hunt in horse country  this coming fall and in future years to show what you claim!

  Pesaonally I am on the shoot 75% of the herd side and that's all i got to say about that.

Im just curious if you have ran this past your kids Nube? How bout your wife or neighbors? Maybe bring them out and we can explain what your ideas and thoughts are while they all get to actually veiw a wild horse up close!!!

 You figure that we should just shoot and dump 75% of the horse numbers. Or what is your plan for all these dead horses? Sounds like you just want to kill for the fun of it and let the rest rot!
I bet with that comment you make right there your vote to have numbers reduced would vastly be outnumbered by the people that are dead set against hunting of any sort. Right now in Alberta if it went to a province wide vote for pure protection of horses or for a 75% reduction of the herd im afraid you nor I would like the out come! And would just fuel their fire for complete protection of horses. Just remember anyone searching wildhorses on the net can walk into posts and comments such as these.


Ill ask again for anyone that can answer! What true and honest harm has the horse caused in the west country? Is all the habitat that was out there gone now? Nope, there is more and better feed in most areas than there ever has been. Have the elk numbers been declined due to horses? Nope as the same population decreases are seen in both large areas with and large areas without horses. So has the horse actually done to the west country?

[nube]

It's not worth the hassle to debate this with you Darcy.  I know how these things go with you.  You can twist all the comments the way you want.   Good luck!

[sheepguide]

Like I said boys pictures don't lie. Post it up. It's undeniable and is the best way to get herd reductions. Nobody can argue pictures. I'm sure your out there a ton in them areas so shouldn't be hard to document your case but as usual it will end here as your guys concern seems more about talk and less about doing something about it. Anyways as usual no one will tackle the yaha tinda questions as it takes to much away from their theories. Some day someone will have some real info and tackle that topic.
Cheers boys until the next topic!

[deerman]

Wild is wild and feral is feral.

The feral horses did not arrive on this continent in a natural way.  They don't belong here and never will.

[JIMMY 808]

Wild is wild and feral is feral.

The feral horses did not arrive on this continent in a natural way.  They don't belong here and never will.

  500 years is a long time technically I don't belong here either if you ask one of my native buddy's I am a terrorist. 

[sheepguide]

LoL ah Justin your just no fun. I say what I know and sorry if it makes you feel like I'm trying to be right all the time. And pictures can show the damage but if you can't get the pics it's no worry. But like I said for those that want horse numbers at a way lower level no one will change anything or do anything if the best argument is that it's just due to them being Feral. That argument hasn't gone anywhere in the last 30 years I've been around the wild horse issues so I'm pretty sure it won't anytime in the future. LoL and I wasn't the one via PM that was name dropping to show who I know. If you need a reminder that would have been you. So not sure why you say I know all the guys and writers as I know very few writers.

[sheepguide]

Actually due to some effort by a few guys things have changed with the opening up of more catch permits this past year. I know of one area I hunt the had close to 50 head of horses brought out of it this winter.

[Springer]

Curious if we have such a Wolf problem killing the Elk Population that they don't thin out the Wild Horses ? Any reasoning behind this? Do Cougar  ever haul down Horses?

[Dark Wing]

Curious if we have such a Wolf problem killing the Elk Population that they don't thin out the Wild Horses ? Any reasoning behind this? Do Cougar  ever haul down Horses?

Sure wolves and Cougars take down horses but it's easier for them to target deer,elk and moose.

In my early days of hunting I spent a lot of time hunting deer in an area that the Natives kept 50-100 head of horses. One year they rounded them up and sold them for horse meat. That fall I started to see elk in the area again. So yes I do believe horses effect certain species that compete with them for the same type of habitat. In the last 5 or more years one of our local outfitters is illegally wintering his horses in the same area where I use to find elk sheds, now I only find horse shit. I'm glad we don't have a large feral horse problem around Grande cache. By the way SRD does know about the illegal grazing and I don't know why any thing isn't being done about it.