Idaho has the right idea!!!!!!!Why can't we do it?

[nube]

LEWISTON, Idaho — Federal wildlife agents report they have shot and killed 14 wolves from helicopters in northern Idaho as part of an effort to help restores the elk population in the Lolo zone, an area long considered home to the best elk herds and habitat in the state.

The three-day operation was carried out earlier this month at a cost of $22,500 by agents with the USDA Wildlife Services and the Idaho Department of Fish and Game.

Wildlife managers believe that a sustained reduction in wolf numbers will allow the Lolo elk herd, which has been severely depressed since the mid-1990s, to rebound. State wildlife officials have long had a goal of reducing wolf numbers in the area along the upper Lochsa and North Fork of the Clearwater rivers, once renowned for its elk hunting.

"We'd like to see one of Idaho's premier elk populations recover as much as possible," said Jim Unsworth, deputy director of Fish and Game.

The wolf population in the area has also been diminished by hunters and trappers in recent months. Through Wednesday, the state reported sportsmen had taken 22 wolves from the Lolo, while another six wolves were shot from helicopters last spring, bringing the total of known wolf kills to 42.

Before the start of the hunting season, the Lolo zone wolf population was estimated at 75 to 100, with additional animals crossing back and forth between Idaho and Montana.

Biologists said the biggest problem for Lolo elk herds was a long-term change in the habitat. But state officials also blame growing numbers of bears and mountain lions. Hunting seasons on those predators were liberalized and managers expected elk numbers to slowly climb. But as the herds continued to shrink and blame was placed on the increasing number of wolves moving into the area.

Recent studies by Fish and Game researchers now show wolves are the primary cause of death in female elk in the Lolo and of calves more than 6 months old. Researchers have said the habitat is capable of supporting far more than the 2,000 elk estimated to be in the area.

Statewide, Fish and Game officials report that hunters and trappers had killed 318 wolves since the public hunting season opened last fall. Most hunting and trapping seasons end March 31, but wolf hunting will be allowed in the Lolo and Selway zones through June.

The department has a goal of reducing the number of wolves in the state, but has not set a target population or limit.

[Tuc]

Well I don't know if I'm in favour of human interference. I have a tendancy to think overtime, mother nature will balance our wildlife populations if we don't interfere.

Remember when there were no wolves in Yellowstone? The elk and deer populations exploded and so did disease. Before the wolves were brought back to the park disease almost wiped out the entire deer population out.
The deer population rose again when biologists reintroduced wolves back into Yellowstone. The elk and deer population became steady and the size of the animals and their antlers increased within a few years. Biologists concluded that the introduction of wolves were responsible for the healthy genetic cvonstitution of the deer and elk population in that ecosystem.
Wolves kill the fragile and sick, keeping herds healthy to pass on good genes to the next generation.  I think alot of this bitching is done by the hunters in Idaho, saying elk herds are low. Maybe they are just harder to find because the wolves amke them weary and keep them on the run. They say for every 500 prey animals there is one predator on average. (rule of thumb) Maybe them idahoians will have to hone up their hunting skills to be successful and stop crying foul.

[nube]

Tuc you must not have been paying attention to what is going on in Alberta the last 10 years with the elk and sheep herds.  Wolves don't just prey on the sick.  Look at the Yaha ranch and the elk herds int he last 10 years.  It went form world class to not even worth drawing a tag anymore. 
Your right in that we do need some predators but when they wipe out the main species of animals we want around I say screw it and shoot 80% of the wolves. 

[Tuc]

I guess everyone has different opinions about wolf control. I've had many debates about this topic on AO and just offered mine here. I've seen many wolves in 316 and I have never had a problem taking a deer in that zone. There never was too many elk in the southern party of 316 but still lots of wolves.

[Guido]

I have a huge dislike for wolves and have to agree, shoot most of them. Spent 2 weeks in an area where we ussually get our share of elk, all we saw were wolf tracks and white bones. Nice camping trip, i guess.

[walleyes]

There is definitely a balance that has to be maintained. I do beleive that we as humans have the first right to eat then any sub species after but with that said I certainly don't believe we should kill all the predators. To say KILL THEM ALL I beleive is a bit harsh. There is a balance that can be found that works for all. In a lot of areas there is definitely getting to be a problem with predators especially wolves. With the lack of trapping taking place these days the population of some predators is getting out of balance. Unfortunately the people looking after our resources are usually the last to react to any situation, they fear the outcome from the many so called environmental groups that just wait for an opportunity to pounce on any so called attack on any type of wildlife. These groups have little real knowledge or refuse to listen to any real logic when it comes to management issues. Its sad but they are starting to win more and more every day do to our managers lack of care or will to do whats right. They rather choose to take the easy rout regardless of the effect on our wildlife resources.

If you think its been hard the last couple years you just wait and see the outcome from a winter like we are having. Hardly any snow in the north compared to most years,, the wolves feast a plenty. The deep snow is the first line of defence for animals like moose and elk during the winter. With the lack of it its a nightmare for the animals. A few winters back I was drilling a project up in the High Level area. It was a winter like this up there with very minimal amounts of snow. One of our construction guys was a local Metis fellow who also ran an outfitters business in the area. The man had no love for wolves hated them with a passion. We came across a few kills that winter quite a few more then what would be considered normal for the area a direct result from the lack of snow. The man had a very effective way of dealing with wolves,, a way I will never mention on an open forum such as this but he definitely took care of a few of them that winter,, and never made a sound doing it..

[walking buffalo]

Tuc,

 Will you expand on the Yellowstone diseased elk and deer issue?

What disease? When?

Deer numbers dropped due to displacement by the high elk population.

I think you inhaled some propoganda.




Alberta SRD does aerial shoot wolves every year, hundreds of them.


Is the predator issue an increasing concern with SRD?  Yes.

SRD realizes it and is looking at ways to induce higher hunter/trapper opportunity. Remember the fall cougar boot season and revised CMA's for hound seasons? How about the offering of bounties provided by some Counties for wolves and coyotes and Trapper incentives?

Will these efforts be enough to significantly reduce predator numbers and quickly reverse the trend in lower ungulate numbers. Probably not.

[nube]

Hey Walking buffalo, wondered where you have been hiding the last little while as we have not seen you on here lately. 
Glad to have you back. 
I didn't realise that we had a helecopter hunt for wolves in Alberta.  I imagine that is a good thing as it would get a lot of people upset.  That being said I don't think they can put a cramp in wolf numbers unless they really spend some $$$ to do it justice.  Picking off a few here or there is not going to do much.  I realise it costs money and if they are willing to shoot a bunch of wolves this way I would ask in what way we as sportman can contribute to make a real difference.  To me I would be all for an extra $20 or more on a licence if I new they would beat the heck out of the wolves for a few years!!

REally I think even if there was a bounty you wouldn't see much either.  I have hunted wolves a few times and not ever seen one.  I have killed them with hunters while guiding bear hunters and maybe only killed a handfull after 6 years or so of guiding for 6 weeks straight.  Wolves are very elusive I find. 

Back in the day they used to poison them.  I know that would raise a few eyebrows for some guys because of other critters that may be harmed but really I am all for it if we can get a hold on wolf numbers. 

What's the answer??

[Tuc]

WB, I read it or heard it on a show about Yellowstone wolves sometime ago. Deer like to browse opposed to elk grazing habits so I can't see the elk eating up their food supply. I'm sure they said the deer took a beating from a disease of some sort.

I'll try and research it some and see what I can find.
Nice to see you over here!

[sheepguide]

Remember the fall cougar boot season and revised CMA's for hound seasons? 

Just wondering if you have any info reguarding the amount this has increased hunter harvest or really improved the situations?
I know many of the main CMA's closed almost a full month earlier than prior years and I also know many of the new CMA's werent hunted allot
with all of them still being open this late in the season. Just curious if the changes have actually improved things anywhere?

Also was wondering if anyone has any numbers showing what was taken in the "Boot" season.

SG

[walking buffalo]

Hey Nube,

 I haven't been hiding or recently banned from anywhere. 

Yes, Alberta used to poison wolves, and they still do. Non-target mortality is quite small due to the types of toxins used and delivery techniques. The subject of non-target and secondary consumption mortality is hyped up by opponents to lethal management techniques.

The only answer to wolf control over large areas is poisoning and aerial shooting. Trapping and hunting has never reduced wolf populations over a large area to required levels. Hopefully the provincial wolf control program will be expanded.



Hi Tuck,
 
 Let me know what you find re. Yellowstone. There are thousands of papers on the subject.

 Yah, good to talk with you guys again. Some good people here, and I like this forum when a certain other forum is not being 'dissed.



SH,

 Long time, no arguing! The good ol' days. 

The boot season saw limited harvest. No real effect on cougar populations. However, the boot season was designed with this intent as a new season. Season length may be adjusted in the future to allow boot hunters to focus on cats outside of Ungulate seasons. This will bring the harvest up.   Baby steps....

 For a full accounting of harvest stats, Give Nathan Webb a call.


 
 You should fill me in regarding the hound seasons. I get the impression that there more guys running hounds each year. Good to see.

[sheepguide]

 For a full accounting of harvest stats, Give Nathan Webb a call.


 
 You should fill me in regarding the hound seasons. I get the impression that there more guys running hounds each year. Good to see.

My cougar hunting buddy is actually trying to get Nate to attend the ATHA(Alberta Tree Hound Association) meeting on March 18th, so im sure it will come forth there if Nate attends. Ill be sure to quiz him!

As for the increased number of guys running hounds as being good, id have to disagree!!!!   For one the increase is only in a few central zones on the most part and it has turned it into a run and gun type of hunt. Guys are shooting the first cats they see as with all the extra hunters and limited quotas(some CMA's with only 2-3tags) if they dont the seasons close before they harvest anything. This has resulted in alot of young, small cats being shot. Which on the birth of Cat aging during registration isnt any good for anything as this could actually lower quotas if the average age level of harvested cats is to low(Thats straight from Nates mouth less than 1 year ago when this was being adopted).
Second with the way it is now some seasons closed on day one or two when they would normally have went a month to at least Jan. So that intern closes the chase season so now way less cats get run each year and way less get that exposure and education to humans. Without these negative interactions the chances of more cats becoming problem cats will increase drasticly that will increase the problem cats that are killed.

SG

[Tuc]

This may help to explain it some.
I guess the disease I was refering to was CWD which rose dramatically after the extinction of the yellowstone wolf. Now that they are back in YS the eco system is alot healthier.
http://adirondackwolf.org/page4.html

[walking buffalo]

This may help to explain it some.
I guess the disease I was refering to was CWD which rose dramatically after the extinction of the yellowstone wolf. Now that they are back in YS the eco system is alot healthier.
http://adirondackwolf.org/page4.html

 LOL!  That was a fun read. I loved it!  Reminds me of watching Walt Disney movies.

 BTW, There was no mention of CWD in Yellowstone.

 Tuc, I don't intend this to be mean, but did you actually fall for the purported cause and effect in that article?   

[walking buffalo]

My cougar hunting buddy is actually trying to get Nate to attend the ATHA(Alberta Tree Hound Association) meeting on March 18th, so im sure it will come forth there if Nate attends. Ill be sure to quiz him!

As for the increased number of guys running hounds as being good, id have to disagree!!!!   For one the increase is only in a few central zones on the most part and it has turned it into a run and gun type of hunt. Guys are shooting the first cats they see as with all the extra hunters and limited quotas(some CMA's with only 2-3tags) if they dont the seasons close before they harvest anything. This has resulted in alot of young, small cats being shot. Which on the birth of Cat aging during registration isnt any good for anything as this could actually lower quotas if the average age level of harvested cats is to low(Thats straight from Nates mouth less than 1 year ago when this was being adopted).
Second with the way it is now some seasons closed on day one or two when they would normally have went a month to at least Jan. So that intern closes the chase season so now way less cats get run each year and way less get that exposure and education to humans. Without these negative interactions the chances of more cats becoming problem cats will increase drasticly that will increase the problem cats that are killed.

SG

So more hound hunters is a bad thing.... ?   


Ask Nate for the number of cats killed by the gov and landowners.

Regarding the fall boot season, F&W needs to extend the season into Dec/Jan. Allow hunters to actually make an effort in this hunt. This change would likely result in the desired harvest being achieved.

[sheepguide]

So more hound hunters is a bad thing.... ?   

Honestly in my opinion it is! Guys have went from selectively harvesting the older cats to just shooting anything because they know the season will be closed anyday. This resulted in a lot of young cats being harvested.

What's the best thing to deter cats from human confrontations Buff? Your a smart guy, show cats negative human interaction and they will try and avoid humans. But now instead of hounds man  running cats for a month or two treeing say 100 cats to kill 5 they are only hunting a few days treeing say 20 cats to kill the same number. Now instead of 100 having a negative look on humans only 20 do. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that is going to affect things.

Second like I stated they are tooth aging cats now and if to many young cats are killed it will affect the quota numbers. And with the more guys having dogs now the more that are just out there to kill a cat and are harvesting anything that gets in the tree!

Maybe Buff you should come out next fall and see some stuff first hand going on out there instead of reading your books and computers!

SG

[walking buffalo]

SG,

 I'm in full support of a No Kill Chase season.

 Looking forward to the invite next winter. 

[sheepguide]

Yep a chase season would be a great thing!!