Author Topic: confused...  (Read 1918 times)

Phoenix

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confused...
« on: February 04, 2018, 12:14:22 PM »

So now I'm confused. As I read posts on bullets, I'm told that bullet weight is better than bullet speed. that we need minimum 1,000 ft/lbs to kill a deer Elk etc.
So I'm reading Barnes Recipe book and they say that velocity is more important than energy, and as long as there is enough energy to break skin, (400ft/lbs +-) and bullet placement, we can kill anything.
Who is right????

BruceW

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Re: confused...
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2018, 01:01:08 PM »
Edit
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 01:07:15 PM by BruceW »

sonny

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Re: confused...
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2018, 03:02:49 PM »
My go to hunting rifle is a Winchester model 70 in .30-06 it's good enough for any game animal in Alberta.

I don't worry about numbers. ;)

Phoenix

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Re: confused...
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2018, 04:27:23 PM »
most of the stuff I hunt is beyond 400 yards. so calculations and knowledge is very important. so do I calculate velocity, or for Kinetic Energy?

AxeMan

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Re: confused...
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2018, 06:20:45 PM »
Energy is one of the important factors in killing.
Remember this:
E = 1/2*m*v*v
m is mass (bullet weight)
v is velocity (bullet speed)

See how the v is a squared factor.  That is why a lot of emphasis is put on bullet speed.
Mass is important too but in the Energy formula, it is only a single factor.
Think of it this way.  Increasing the bullet speed has a double effect on the energy.
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Phoenix

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Re: confused...
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2018, 07:20:31 PM »
so it was suggested to me by a reputable gun store, to decrease my bullet weight to 120 grns, from 140, and change powder to R-22. follow the recipe that Barnes have so my muzzle velocity would increase to 3450 (book) and add another 60 fps for every inch over 24, therefore 60x3.5 or 210 fps so a total of 3660fps. From my 140 shooting @ 3200 + 210 or 3410.  so E= .5MVV or 60 x 13395600. either way, I am led to believe that @ 1000 yards there is still 950+ft/lbs and an extremely flat ballistic 1868 using 120 grn bullets and...less powder. Or the 140 grns, @3410 fps with the same drop, but for some reason less velocity at 1000 yards and more energy at 1100 ft/lbs, and a velocity of 1680 fps.

Oh my brain hurts :) :) :)

sonny

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Re: confused...
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2018, 08:21:19 PM »
most of the stuff I hunt is beyond 400 yards. so calculations and knowledge is very important. so do I calculate velocity, or for Kinetic Energy?

Most of the "stuff" I hunt has been 100 yards or less including a moose at 35 yards.

Just a question ....How many animals have you wounded and lost at a range of 400 yards or more?

Phoenix

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Re: confused...
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2018, 09:45:47 PM »
In actual fact, I have the misfortune to wound one deer a few years back. the shot was with a 3006, using a 175 (?) grn bullet. shot him @ 43 yards. Passed through him, lost the blood trail 2 miles away.
All my shots have been rehearsed over and over again until its one shot one kill.  I shot a few deer etc around the 400-500 range, always one shot,one kill. My 938 yrd deer was just that. took a while to make calculations. Buck dropped like a bad habit.

how many boxes do you shoot before hunting?

Walleyes

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Re: confused...
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2018, 08:11:40 AM »
Remember gentlemen we left a place because we got tired of this type of thing. Don't condemn another hunter even if you don't agree with his style of hunting. Many people are very accurate shooters at long ranges, let them enjoy their time out there as they choose.

Now back to the topic, I was enjoying it.
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Lance Skene

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Re: confused...
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2018, 08:35:05 AM »
I think you need to be able to go either way, thats why I have loading equip. When I lived in BC most shots were under 200, but living in Sask 600+ was fairly common.

Mass + velocity = energy.... you can go either way and end up with the same result but for long range shots you have to keep the mass low in order maintain a flat trajectory as long as possible.
Lance

JIMMY 808

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Re: confused...
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2018, 11:39:55 AM »
so it was suggested to me by a reputable gun store, to decrease my bullet weight to 120 grns, from 140, and change powder to R-22. follow the recipe that Barnes have so my muzzle velocity would increase to 3450 (book) and add another 60 fps for every inch over 24, therefore 60x3.5 or 210 fps so a total of 3660fps. From my 140 shooting @ 3200 + 210 or 3410.  so E= .5MVV or 60 x 13395600. either way, I am led to believe that @ 1000 yards there is still 950+ft/lbs and an extremely flat ballistic 1868 using 120 grn bullets and...less powder. Or the 140 grns, @3410 fps with the same drop, but for some reason less velocity at 1000 yards and more energy at 1100 ft/lbs, and a velocity of 1680 fps.

Oh my brain hurts :) :) :)

I take it this is for a 7 rem mag?

IMO your going the wrong way in bullet weight and a poor choice of bullet for true LR work. 

Phoenix

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Re: confused...
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2018, 01:39:54 PM »
ok... why?

JIMMY 808

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Re: confused...
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2018, 02:38:11 PM »
ok... why?
Shot a few things at longer distances and always used Target bullets Amax, Scenar there are options today for LR hunting bullets but I had good results.

Heavy for caliber around 3000 fps and have at it.

Last deer I shot was with a 6br 105gr Scenar 540 yards impact velocity 1900fps very dead deer. 

Lots to the LR game no expert here but just setting up for a shot is difficult seeing an animal and then still being able to see it going prone isn't as easy as it sounds.     

So IMO foot pounds doesn't mean much I do not know of anyone out there that would want to take a 105gr bullet in the belly button at 1900 fps
« Last Edit: February 05, 2018, 02:55:46 PM by JIMMY 808 »

Phoenix

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Re: confused...
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2018, 10:26:37 AM »
LD requires a lot of work, a lot of math and practice practice practice. When you think you have it, you need to practice some more.  Always take a spoter with you, and a notebook.You will need both!!

I'm not new to long distance, I just left it when I left the Armed Forces and spent the last 4 years just getting back into it. getting old means getting C.R.A.F.T. (can't remember a frigging thing)  I always check out new technology. So this is a new idea just trying to get my head around.

Phoenix

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Re: confused...
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2018, 08:42:38 AM »
I found this article on the subject.. thought you guys might like it

https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Effective+Game+Killing.html

Walleyes

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Re: confused...
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2018, 05:31:13 PM »
Good article Phoenix.

Personally I myself am not a long range guy. I enjoy the hunt, stalk, call, getting in tight with my game  but that's my bag, that's what gets me up in the mornings hunting. But Im a bush guy, a trapper type not so much a gun guy. Don't get me wrong I love my guns but to me they are simply a tool used for the greater end result they are not the focus of the process just one of the tools, but each to their own is what I say. Granted this day and age with the media coverage and hunting shows available they make it look all to easy and in some cases may encourage those not cabable of such shots to take chances. But to throw all LD shooters in this category is not fare. I enjoy reading and learning about ballistics and gun performance and have learnt a bundle on these forums over the years on such matters.

Keep up the dialogue and discussions, it's all good.
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LeverAction

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Re: confused...
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2018, 07:05:09 PM »
But, the early morning quite, the frost lifting from the ground with the breaking of the sun. Your senses alert and you mind relaxed. You walk softly to your perfect spot in anticipation of what the day will bring. You look down and in your arms is one of many of your favorites out of your collection. You smell the old wood stock, the oil of the action, you see a bit of fading in the bluing, and how it fits just right in your hands.  Come on Walleyes, ya gotta give it a bit more than just a tool.  ;)  As for LD hunting, if your good at it, have fun. Clean kill is all we can ask.

JIMMY 808

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Re: confused...
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2018, 08:20:05 PM »
Long range really has no set distance I canít say what your personal distance over mine but getting around the 500 yard mark on game is getting out there.


But itís getting sorta extream in a way shots are going 1500 yards plus.

Walleyes

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Re: confused...
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2018, 08:23:52 PM »
Quite the romantic there lever lol..

Nice picture you drew but in all reality in that situation I probably wouldn't even notice my gun, and thats being totally honest. Like I said I do like guns they are fun to own and use but a tool only. When I'm at home and bored I don't mind sitting down and petting them till they are shiny but in the field certainly not all that important to me.
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Never run away a boy, When you can walk away a man

http://www.therebel.media

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LeverAction

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Re: confused...
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2018, 12:09:31 PM »
 Romantic  :-[ Nope, most of it was stolen. Even with 3 years of grade 7, I'm not that smart.