Author Topic: Energy and what it does to game  (Read 12235 times)

AxeMan

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Re: Energy and what it does to game
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2013, 09:38:14 PM »
This is a good video to help visualize of what bullets do on impact.  Some great high speed footage of ballistic gelatin impacts starting at 4:54.


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deerman

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Re: Energy and what it does to game
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2013, 10:47:29 PM »

Great video, thanks for posting.  I think it pretty clearly shows that energy from the bullet is transferred to the media it hits and has a definite  effect.

Sonny

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Re: Energy and what it does to game
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2013, 11:08:36 PM »
Great video, thanks for posting.  I think it pretty clearly shows that energy from the bullet is transferred to the media it hits and has a definite  effect.

The Zapruder film (slow mo) shows it clearly..

I'd post it but I don't want to get in trouble.. :o

alkali

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Re: Energy and what it does to game
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2013, 08:11:45 AM »
cool video thanks! I'm not sure what that shows to me. If it is a demonstartion of energy then the x-bullets don't have as much energy to disrupt the gel. For sure a bullet that fragments causes a bigger bulge and does more damage than one that doesn't. How is that if energy is the same and energy transfer is what kills? Watching those bullets splat on the plate brings up another question. Do you have to hit the animal to kill it with energy? I remember shooting beavers with a rancher near Turner Valley. He used a 22-250 so a head shot on a swimming beaver was messy! But he shot the nose off one and couldn't find it until the next day. Why wouldn't the energy from the water hit kill the beaver?

honkerhitter

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Re: Energy and what it does to game
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2013, 08:46:25 AM »
This is one that always confuses the hell out of me. A full metal jacket bullet and and expanding one, same size and speed have the same energy if I understand it correctly. Why then does the expanding one kill beter if energy is doing any of the killen?

I think you answered your own question here.  If you have 2 bullets the exact same weight and traveling at the same velocity have the exact same kinetic energy.  Now taking shot placement out of the  equation, say both bullets hit an animal at the exact same spot, the fmj not designed to expand will zip on thru TRANSFERING less energy to the surrounding tissue and making a smaller wound channel , this bullet also retains more of its kinetic energy and keeps traveling along its flight path.
 The expanding bullet as it enters the animal starts to upset or expand thus TRANSFERING more of its energy into the surrounding area and tissue while at the same time making a larger wound channel .  So the chances of the second animal dying quicker is greater.  The wound channel killed the animal but the extra energy distributed thru the animal I believe helped in a quick kill.
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deerman

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Re: Energy and what it does to game
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2013, 09:08:43 AM »

"The wound channel killed the animal but the extra energy distributed thru the animal I believe helped in a quick kill.


That is a good statement.

I don't hear anyone saying "energy kills the animal, loss of blood does not."  The original question was looking for opinions on what is the total effect of the bullet (and energy) in the total event of shooting an animal.



Now what happens when you hit a ground squirrel with a .22/250?  The critter comes apart.  Pretty hard to say it dies from blood loss do to a bullet wound.

alkali

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Re: Energy and what it does to game
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2013, 09:29:41 AM »
I think you answered your own question here.  If you have 2 bullets the exact same weight and traveling at the same velocity have the exact same kinetic energy.  Now taking shot placement out of the  equation, say both bullets hit an animal at the exact same spot, the fmj not designed to expand will zip on thru TRANSFERING less energy to the surrounding tissue and making a smaller wound channel , this bullet also retains more of its kinetic energy and keeps traveling along its flight path.
 The expanding bullet as it enters the animal starts to upset or expand thus TRANSFERING more of its energy into the surrounding area and tissue while at the same time making a larger wound channel .  So the chances of the second animal dying quicker is greater.  The wound channel killed the animal but the extra energy distributed thru the animal I believe helped in a quick kill.
Thisa is where I get lost! Are you saying that the energy from the one bullet transfers better than the other? Or are you saying the energy causes the one bullet to come apart making a bigger wound hole? It has to have something to do with how the bullet is made or the same energy in each would do the same joib, I think.
Is kinetic energy what we are talking about?

alkali

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Re: Energy and what it does to game
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2013, 09:31:43 AM »
"The wound channel killed the animal but the extra energy distributed thru the animal I believe helped in a quick kill.


That is a good statement.

I don't hear anyone saying "energy kills the animal, loss of blood does not."  The original question was looking for opinions on what is the total effect of the bullet (and energy) in the total event of shooting an animal.
 :D I got this one! It is comparative scale, right? Hit a fly with a swatter and then a bear. The results are different because of the comparative scale of the weapon to the target.


Now what happens when you hit a ground squirrel with a .22/250?  The critter comes apart.  Pretty hard to say it dies from blood loss do to a bullet wound.

walleyes

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Re: Energy and what it does to game
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2013, 09:47:32 AM »
"The wound channel killed the animal but the extra energy distributed thru the animal I believe helped in a quick kill.


That is a good statement.

I don't hear anyone saying "energy kills the animal, loss of blood does not."  The original question was looking for opinions on what is the total effect of the bullet (and energy) in the total event of shooting an animal.



Now what happens when you hit a ground squirrel with a .22/250?  The critter comes apart.  Pretty hard to say it dies from blood loss do to a bullet wound.
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Still the wound channel,, it's just that the wound channel exceeds the size of the animal..

JIMMY 808

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Re: Energy and what it does to game
« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2013, 10:26:16 AM »
Here is an Elephant a friend shot last year type of bullet and velocity is a key factor to slow not enough penetration to fast defections and tumbling.  Blood loss did not kill this critter.     

 

walleyes

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Re: Energy and what it does to game
« Reply #30 on: March 19, 2013, 10:44:58 AM »
Here is an Elephant a friend shot last year type of bullet and velocity is a key factor to slow not enough penetration to fast defections and tumbling.  Blood loss did not kill this critter.     

 

It most certainly did.. The blood loss and hemorrhaging caused in and to the brain caused the death of this animal. Energy alone does absolutely nothing in stopping a critter like this. Just because the blood loss is not evident as it would be with a lung shot does not mean it never happened. Only a wound channel to the brain does this. Again,, the energy is only required to cause the wound.. You could take that same energy and apply it to a sledge hammer and beat that elephant with it all day,, you ain't going to kill him only make him mad.. It takes a wound channel to kill him. Proper placed wound channel.   

JIMMY 808

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Re: Energy and what it does to game
« Reply #31 on: March 19, 2013, 10:54:13 AM »
I never thought of it the way you describe. 

But Blood loss in a millisecond second?  The hart would have been on its last pump. 

walleyes

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Re: Energy and what it does to game
« Reply #32 on: March 19, 2013, 11:10:42 AM »
I never thought of it the way you describe. 

But Blood loss in a millisecond second?  The hart would have been on its last pump.

I would imagine  it's heart was still pumping for some time after it was dead. Total shut down of the nervous system but not the muscles.

deerman

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Re: Energy and what it does to game
« Reply #33 on: March 19, 2013, 11:46:18 AM »
It most certainly did.. The blood loss and hemorrhaging caused in and to the brain caused the death of this animal. Energy alone does absolutely nothing in stopping a critter like this. Just because the blood loss is not evident as it would be with a lung shot does not mean it never happened. Only a wound channel to the brain does this. Again,, the energy is only required to cause the wound.. You could take that same energy and apply it to a sledge hammer and beat that elephant with it all day,, you ain't going to kill him only make him mad.. It takes a wound channel to kill him. Proper placed wound channel.   

You are talking about two things here 1. hemorrhaging causing death.  and 2. wound channel to the brain.

It is my understanding that 1. hemorrhaging means that blood loss effects the animals organs ability to function (particularly the brain) and lack of oxygen is the major factor.  With a large hole and massive tissue destruction in the brain, death occurred before lack of O2 was a factor.
So by the time the brain started bleeding it was not a factor.

The wound channel needs to be defined perhaps.  If you look at the path of a bullet through a media the wound channel is much bigger dia. that the bullet.  If energy is the cause of that part of the wound channel then energy has a big effect on wound channel and therefore DEATH.

When you look at a ground squirrel after it was shot by a .22/250 you could say "look that piece of him is haemorrhaging and so is that chunk and those fragments".

Hit a coyote in the chest with the same bullet and the coyote does not come apart like the ground squirrel because it is bigger and has more body mass and a tougher hide.  But inside there has been a contained explosion of coyote tissue.

I believe a well hit coyote normally is dead before it bleeds to death.

alkali

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Re: Energy and what it does to game
« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2013, 01:59:14 PM »
The wound channel needs to be defined perhaps.  If you look at the path of a bullet through a media the wound channel is much bigger dia. that the bullet.  If energy is the cause of that part of the wound channel then energy has a big effect on wound channel and therefore DEATH.

But that isn't what the movie shows above. It shows the bullets coming apart making a big wound channel but the x-bullet almost cutting its way through and not much more. Does that mean the energy isn't being used there??? :-\ Why not if anyone nos.

deerman

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Re: Energy and what it does to game
« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2013, 02:22:50 PM »
But that isn't what the movie shows above. It shows the bullets coming apart making a big wound channel but the x-bullet almost cutting its way through and not much more. Does that mean the energy isn't being used there??? :-\ Why not if anyone nos.

Which movie above?  The "kurzzeit" one?

I am not seeing what you seem to be seeing I guess.

Rman

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Re: Energy and what it does to game
« Reply #36 on: April 15, 2013, 06:45:12 PM »
I'll throw a wrench into the whole deal and say this: I don't really give a rats azz about energy numbers, at the muzzle, or at distance.
Velocity is where it is at. Most bullet maunfactures publish maximum and minimum impact velocitys for specific bullets. Thats what I tend to look at. The energy numbers tend to turn into gack, and don't mean a whole bunch in the real world.

R.
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walleyes

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Re: Energy and what it does to game
« Reply #37 on: April 15, 2013, 07:26:22 PM »
I'll throw a wrench into the whole deal and say this: I don't really give a rats azz about energy numbers, at the muzzle, or at distance.
Velocity is where it is at. Most bullet maunfactures publish maximum and minimum impact velocitys for specific bullets. Thats what I tend to look at. The energy numbers tend to turn into gack, and don't mean a whole bunch in the real world.

R.

So a 22-250 traveling at 4000fps has more energy at 100 yards than a 300 rum traveling at 3000 ??

deerman

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Re: Energy and what it does to game
« Reply #38 on: April 15, 2013, 07:34:58 PM »
Velocity is one of the factors. By itself it get the bullet to the target faster and maybe with less drop.  But a light, poor bullet will not do a good job even if it has lots of velocity.  (depending on the animal it hits and how much velocity "lots" is)

Rman

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Re: Energy and what it does to game
« Reply #39 on: April 15, 2013, 07:35:15 PM »
Don't know, and don't care.
Both would more than dump anything I would point the rilfe at, right on its azz.
It isn't about the energy, at all. It is about velocity, and what that bullets manufacturer recommends for best performance.
Energy numbers are gack, and don't mean anything.

R.
Dinty Moore is to shooters, like spinach is to Popeye.
Hell of a thing, killing a deer. You take away all he's got, and all he's ever going to have.