Author Topic: Sighting In.  (Read 2465 times)

walleyes

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Sighting In.
« on: July 29, 2013, 09:25:36 PM »
So I was chatting guns with my cross shift tonight and he showed me something very intersting.. He tells me for years he has been sighting his guns in at 25 yrds yes 25 yrds.. He used the winshester ballistic chart to prove his piont. When you sight in your average lets say magnum at 200yrds which is pretty much standard,, look at your long range trajectory.. In most cases we are on average 40" - 50" low.. Now do the numbers and sight it in at 25 yrds and lets take a look closer up range,, on average we only get about 3" high at the most usualy around 150 - 175 yrds,, no big deal.. Now look down range again at the 500yrd mark,, we are on average 20" higher !!

Now I realise these ballistic charts are not rock solid but this does give us some very interesting info, especialy for long range shooting. One would still have to shoot some 100yrd targets to ensure our left to right is on because we all know just a slight left to right at 25yrds can be huge at 300. But just think about it,, how much easier is it to hold steady at 100 than it is at 300 ?? or how much easier is it to zero in at 25 than 200..

The man has been an avid shooter for many years and swears by this method, personely I am going to give it a shot well more than a shot probly a few dozen.. This certainly is an interesting concept and a new one to me..

Thoughts ???

guido

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Re: Sighting In.
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2013, 09:32:10 PM »


Thoughts ???

how long have you been shooting?

walleyes

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Re: Sighting In.
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2013, 09:37:55 PM »
Over 40 years now,, why ??

I never discredit a theory until its either proven wrong by myself or if there is evidence by someone else,, never.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 09:56:39 PM by walleyes »

walleyes

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Re: Sighting In.
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2013, 09:52:40 PM »
Was just going through some of the different bullets and I will adjust my numbers a bit.. It seems on average most cartridges will shoot about 8 - 10" higher at 500 if sighted in at 25yrds.. Still very intersting concept.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 09:57:49 PM by walleyes »

Tuc

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Re: Sighting In.
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2013, 10:00:13 PM »
I'm not much into ballistics but what I do works for me. Simple....25 yards to start, then 50, 100 and stop. I seldom shoot anything past 200 yds and if my rifle is hitting at 100 yds, it's hitting at 200. Of course I always use the 3 shot pattern.

walleyes

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Re: Sighting In.
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2013, 10:05:15 PM »
I'm with you on that Tuc,, I am by no means a big ballistic guy or even a long range hunter,, its not my thing.. Actually there is no such thing as a long range hunter,,, just long range shooters lol.. And I am no big paper shooter either,, paper taste like crap never seen the point in hunting it a lot.. Still it is interesting to have the knowledge just in case the time comes when a guy may feel the need to pull the trigger on that 60" bull at 500 yards it's good to know where you stand.

It's just the concept I find interesting,, kind of goes against what a guy has always thought.. It's something I am going to try when I get home.. The boys and I have a day of shooting and sighting in coming up at the home range and I am going to see if this theory is correct or not..
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 10:07:34 PM by walleyes »

JIMMY 808

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Re: Sighting In.
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2013, 11:23:14 PM »
Last rifle I sighted in at 25 yards killed an elephant and a lion it works well enough.  The error you donít see at 25 are still there 25,100,200,300 whatever error is still error.  I would have to bust out my calculator to figure it out but .001 movement at the rifle equates to approximately 1/4 movement at 100 yards brings new meaning to keep it tight.  500 yards really is no big deal on a big game animal I call it the 48 inch rule if you can imagine a 48 inch pipe wrench at 500 yards I suggest you sharpen your knife 700 yards or so is were shit gets interesting. 
Having said all this I think you are still thinking like a hunter Walleyes.  I can send you a few PMs on dial and dumping if you like.   

walleyes

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Re: Sighting In.
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2013, 12:03:08 AM »
You touch on the issues I have with it as well jimmy.. One may not even notice being off a bit to the left at 25yrds but at 300 it could be significant. I am thinking on it in a pure trajectory view.. Like I said one would still want to shot at 100/200 yards to practice if nothing else but let's leave the trajectory out of it and just dial in the drift..

Like I said I am definitely going to play with it a bit. Going to site in my '06 to 25 and see what happens.. Just roughed in the new 300wsm at 100 and don't want to bother going through another half box to re do it until I know it's something I want to pursue,, and the '06 is a little easier on the pocket book and the shoulder lol.

Thx for your thoughts Jim and yah any info is good info send some stuff my way..

Lurch

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Re: Sighting In.
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2013, 08:26:57 PM »
A couple of other things at play - I remember a gun writer (a real one like Simpson or Wooters - not one of our deputy dogs from the local rag) explaining it better than I can.

They said sight height plays a role - big objectives high rings etc. Other things are the velocity, and other ballistic info.

From my personal experience it does depend a great deal on the rifle. I have shot at 25 a fair amount and at other distances as well.

I remember shooting my wife`s rifle at 25 to get it roughed in - shot a .75 inch group at a hundred 2.75 inches high at 100 with the first 3 shots. Had another that was about 3 inches low - likely due to what Jimmy mentions with the error being magnified.

I now use maximum point blank range to sight in with a ballistics program. It seems to work for me.

Alot better than the guys I used to see at the gun shop come in and have their rifle bore sighted just as they were leaving town to hunt...

GUNBUILDER

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Re: Sighting In.
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2013, 07:08:37 PM »
I would call this method getting on paper.

Joe Fehr

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Re: Sighting In.
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2013, 11:46:48 AM »
I'm with Gunbuilder on this, sighting in is not just for the rifle it's for the shooter too. You need to know how you shoot not just that the rifle is on at 25 yards, which puts it 2-3" high at 150-175 yards. I will check at 50 yards then go to 100 yards and ensure that the gun is shooting where I want it to then move to the 200 yard range. Confidence is a huge part of hunting and shooting in my opinion.

deerman

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Re: Sighting In.
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2013, 03:07:14 PM »

I don't know what to think of the Original post and the thought of "sighting in" by shooting at 25 yards.  I don't think it is a good idea, the way I understand it.

I will fire a few shots at 25 yards to get the group right on the centre of the bull.  Then move out to 100 yards and sight in so the group is about 3 inches high.

The "sighting in" process has nothing to do with "testing" the shooter.  It is all about the gun.  Anything and everything to do with shooter error should be removed.

Once the gun is sighted in (and shooting the best that IT can) then there is time for the shooter to practice their skills to see what is the best they can.

walleyes

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Re: Sighting In.
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2013, 07:44:16 PM »
I don't know what to think of the Original post and the thought of "sighting in" by shooting at 25 yards.  I don't think it is a good idea, the way I understand it.

I will fire a few shots at 25 yards to get the group right on the centre of the bull.  Then move out to 100 yards and sight in so the group is about 3 inches high.

The "sighting in" process has nothing to do with "testing" the shooter.  It is all about the gun.  Anything and everything to do with shooter error should be removed.

Once the gun is sighted in (and shooting the best that IT can) then there is time for the shooter to practice their skills to see what is the best they can.

If you read my post it's not about practicing at 25 yards it's about long range bullet drop.. I certainly understand guns and shooting better than to sit there and practice my shooting at 25 yard range with a rifle..

I think my post was lost on a few people..

deerman

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Re: Sighting In.
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2013, 08:33:26 AM »
Yes walleyes you are right your original post was kind of "lost on me".
However I was not implying you were talking about practice at 25 yards.

I don't understand what you are trying to say about "long range bullet drop" and how sighting in at 25 yards relates.

I was referring to another post "sighting in is not just for the rifle it's for the shooter too. You need to know how you shoot not just that the rifle is on at 25" - See more at: http://albertasportsman.com/alberta-guns-and-shooting/sighting-in/msg28293/?topicseen#new

JIMMY 808

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Re: Sighting In.
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2013, 02:02:20 PM »
Yes walleyes you are right your original post was kind of "lost on me".
However I was not implying you were talking about practice at 25 yards.

I don't understand what you are trying to say about "long range bullet drop" and how sighting in at 25 yards relates.

I was referring to another post "sighting in is not just for the rifle it's for the shooter too. You need to know how you shoot not just that the rifle is on at 25" - See more at: http://albertasportsman.com/alberta-guns-and-shooting/sighting-in/msg28293/?topicseen#new

  So your rifle is sighted in at 100 yards 3" high.  With dead on holds would it still be 3" high at 500yards?  Same question now at 25 yards dead on hold is the rifle still 3" hi?  Of course not.  But  being what ever it is at 25 won't change the fact that it's 3" hi at 100.   You can work the math backwards or forwards it won't change.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2013, 02:05:02 PM by JIMMY 808 »

BruceW

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Re: Sighting In.
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2013, 05:00:32 PM »
Yes, the first cross at 25 yds is generally correct.  Quite easy to, "boresight" the rifle by supporting it, removing the bolt and looking down the barrel from 25 yds, too.   ;)

I have a hornady reloading book from the 50's or 60's;  in the back of the book are compete ballistics charts, a true treasure trove of information which I have spent many hours poring over.
Knowing what your bullet is doing at range is a great confidence booster.  Also very interesting to compare energy at range with different calibres/weight of bullets. I really don't know why the newer books don't have that.  A failing, IMO.  I commonly tape a simple chart of range/drop to the stock of my coyote killer .243.  Difference between a hit and a miss is inches, and knowing where those inches are.   8)

I'm not a 1 rifle guy, I pore over the ballistic charts for what I feel is the best choice for my quarry at the distance I expect to shoot from, then tailor a load that is most accurate for the weight of bullet I've chosen and sight it accordingly.  (I also test any new bullet by firing them into a row of  milkjugs filled with water from 75yds ending in a newspaper backstop to see how they perform.  You'd be surprised how many, "popular" bullets consistantly fail to perform properly.

Also lot's of interesting things, for eg:  a .243 shooting an 85gr lead is like a .270 shooting a 130gr lead is like a 30-06 shooting a 165gr lead is like a 300winmag shooting a 180gr lead.  Trajectory of the above are almost identical.  (to a point, of course)  Energy changes.  You could actually if you desired, say, have a .270 for deer and a 300 for elk;  if you sight them the same they'd shoot the same.  Just grab the rifle you want to use.

I'm certainly no expert, just enjoy the research, reloading, testing and shooting;  not to mention the hunt!

My two extremes:  .243 shooting 58gr Vmax lead @ approx. 3800fps is 4" high at 100yds;  My 450 is 0 @ 100yds shooting a 400gr.Hawk at about 2000fps.  One's a moosekiller to 150yds, the other'll kill almost any coyote you can see. 
Pretty interesting stuff.

Another thing that amazes me is how a rifle shooting two different powders showing the same MV will prefer one over the other, sometimes by a huge margin(different burn rate?)...........but that's another topic I don't know nearly as much as I'd like to about.   :)

Yup, so much one can learn, so little time to soak it all in, eh?

All that being said, there's a reason a 30-06 is pretty much the most popular calibre, and if I couldn't afford an '06, a .303 is a looooottt closer to an '06 ballistically  than most may think.   :o

honkerhitter

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Re: Sighting In.
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2013, 04:20:35 PM »
I can see what your talking about, as I've see. It done several times to get on paper before stretching it out 100-200-300 and so on. In the late sixtys long before apps and ballistic programs my dad some how stumble across a ballistic disc made by Marlin arms co.  It had several popular calibers around the disc starting with 22 LR and up to 375 h&h.  You turned the window to your caliber and it would give you. Initial sight in distance , an estimated muzzle velocity and where your zero would be down range. It was a guide and it worked pretty well. Most of the flat shooters of the day ( 270 win) were set at 25 yrd intial. As I was young I still remember the one I used most 22 LR , intial sight in at 17 yrds would put you at zero pretty close  at 75 yrds. 1200 fps ammo, I still use that one today.  The darn thing got lost in move but I'm sure there are others out there with them.
I'm from the country , and I like it that way!!!

Huntnut

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Re: Sighting In.
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2013, 09:46:30 AM »
The problem with this method is that any error at 25 yds may be so small that you won't see it but at 100 or 200 yds it will be greatly magnified.

walleyes

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Re: Sighting In.
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2013, 08:23:45 PM »
The problem with this method is that any error at 25 yds may be so small that you won't see it but at 100 or 200 yds it will be greatly magnified.

Definite concern...