Guido, I don't think there are any genetic issues holding' bulls at five points.
Should they alternate the points we can harvest in these zones once in awhile? Good question but you need 5pt elk or there won't be any 6 pt elk.

They need 3 basic things to thrive, food, water, and cover. If these three things are not readily available, the elk will not be attracted to the area. I think utrition is a bigger factor in antler growth and reproduction than genetics. Sometimes Mother Nature does'nt cooperate and supply all the right climate (sunshine, hard winters, droughts, floods) conditions to produce all the food needed for reproduction and antler growth. A bull elk can have the best genetics in the world but if he doesn't get the best nutition he can during the time of his antler growth he will not grow his best set of antlers.

I guess thats why we have the biologists and experts making those choices on zones and pts, they're suppose to be educated in that stuff.

I have an opinion.  The 6 point rule for elk is just as stupid as the full curl rule for sheep.  That's my opinion.

I'm interested in how you came to your opinion on these two issues.

I don't know enough about the elk issue to really be able to say. We all draw on our own experiences and sometimes those can leave us looking pretty stupid. 
I do have some serious concerns about the damage that full curl might be doing to our sheep in those full curl zones. I mean have you looked at what shows up a Willow Valley now?! In the beginning we had big old sheep getting whacked in the full curl now we have young midgets! WTF is that about? Or is there more to the equation than the proponents of full curl know?

I'm not following you here alkali are you saying the rams coming out of full curl zones are smaller than in the past. There really is only one full curl zone in the province and I know I've seen some squeekers come out of there but I've also seen some pigs.

I'm interested in how you came to your opinion on these two issues.

It is my belief that some bulls are genetically predisposed to never grow any more than 5 points per side, and that some rams will never grow a horn that qualifies as full curl.  If these bulls and rams never get shot, therefore living, and passing on those same genetics, longer than the 6 point bulls, and full curl rams, it only stands to reason that 5 point bulls and "short" sheep will become more prevelant in the herd.  A rather simplistic view, I know, but SG put the call out for opinions, so I gave mine.

SG don't get me wrong, I probably didn't state that the right way in my first post. The first part about when selecting cattle based on different traits I don't think your bigger equals better relates directly to healthier and thriftness. That's the artificial part I was saying we have to look over our shoulders. In cattle we as producers are looking for lbs of beef as quickly as possible, but is that what keeps a cow alive without the added management of the producer.

As for the elk you are correct in what you're saying but can we say that a mature 380 bull is any more fit than a mature 340 bull. I'm not sure and at that point it probably doesn't matter. The fittness of a mature dominant bull I suspect has more to it than just antler size however. Like you said what is the rut all about but does the largest antler relate to the fittest sire, I'm sure it counts for something but I'm also sure it doesn't count for everything. The problem as you stated is that someone decided on an unrelated parameter to fitness that is in fact harming the herd. I'm with you I think the best harvest would be a dedicated class harvest where x% of spikes, cows, 3-6 pt and 6pt and greater would be drawn. But we don't get that kind of population counts from SRD so I think split seasons would easily help, especially considering that some people are just looking for some freezer fare.

I'm not following you here alkali are you saying the rams coming out of full curl zones are smaller than in the past. There really is only one full curl zone in the province and I know I've seen some squeekers come out of there but I've also seen some pigs.

According to an outfitter I ran into on a hill the first couple of years after the sheep got to full curl there were some humdingers killed. There still are a couple but he said for the last 3 years average age and size of trophies registered have decreased.

I am certainly no expert or even close to saying I even have a clue about the status of sheep in this province, any knowledge I have of these animals I get from you guys on these forums so for me its all very interesting, I learn a lot.

But what I do know is what the governments aproach is to issues such as these. They have little real knowledge of the subjects and are easily swayed by people with even less knowledge but have an ajenda. It seems the powers at be find it easier and cheaper to just shut it down rather than gather good proper data. Look at what happened with our Grzzly bear in the province. That hunt was shut down by pure pressure from wildlife groups. The government was caught with their pants down with no data to back up any decision so they just panicked and shut it down.. I would hate for this to happen to you guys that do hunt sheep. This can happen in any case, Elk, Moose, Bear..

And I don't take this exuse they use all the time they are under staffed,, bullshit,, they are unorganised and poorly managed, thats what happens when there is no reprecutions for poor work. Generation after generation of tit sucker has went through that place allready and its just getting worse.. Fire half the buggers and give it to the private sector to monitor,, half the price for twice the result.. But holy am I off topic lol.. Sorry boys..

Now just relax and bread deep.  You will settle down and start thinking straight in awhile.  Maybe even come up with a logical constructive thought.

Duffy.  What the hell is your deal? Do you smoke drugs or are you really that brain washed from the bullshit the government jams  down your throat.

No I am enlightened.

Ok every take one deep breath.... now group hug! See doesn't that feel better?

Ok now you do realize your wasting your arguing time as my opinion is all that counts right!! Ha Ha Ha!! 

So let's just agree we are all assholes and discus the actual topic!!

For starters you guys are looking at only 1/2 the genitic make up of a calf elk, you can have the healthiest bull in the herd breed cows and the potential for anyone of them to become breeding stock still depends mostly on the cows health.
Comparing a wild elk to farm raised cattle isn't realistic , and as a rule the smaller birth weight calves say under 75 lbs more often then not hit the ground running, bigger calves over 100- 120 are ussually dopey , hard to get up for the first suck and generally have a higher mortality rate.
As far as open cows not cycling after being open for a year I believe is false , if she is healthy shell cycle. You can't mess up Mother Nature that easy. Whether or not the cycle falls in prime time breeding like the cows that had calves is questionable . But hey I'm no expert just an ol farm boy so TIFWIW.

You are correct - we aren't needing to breed hybrid vigour back into Elk either lol.