Author Topic: Changes to Sheep Hunting  (Read 10535 times)

sheepguide

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Re: Changes to Sheep Hunting
« Reply #60 on: February 14, 2013, 08:23:19 PM »
Our elk in the early 1900's were basically wiped out other than for a couple small heards in banff and jasper. Elk were then brought in from the states to replenish the population. The swift fox is another transplanted animal, leopard frogs, bison and perigain falcons as well as other birds and moving forward maybe our caribou herds will need help.
I hunt sheep to see over the next mountain not to measure the next trophy!

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Guido

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Re: Changes to Sheep Hunting
« Reply #61 on: February 14, 2013, 08:35:56 PM »
Our elk in the early 1900's were basically wiped out other than for a couple small heards in banff and jasper. Elk were then brought in from the states to replenish the population. The swift fox is another transplanted animal, leopard frogs, bison and perigain falcons as well as other birds and moving forward maybe our caribou herds will need help.

 Your close. The population of elk in NORTH AMERICA was at it's lowest around 1900. There was some elk brought in from Yellowstone years later to replenish BANFF and JASPER herds.
 I assumed we would be talking game animals...

Lurch

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Re: Changes to Sheep Hunting
« Reply #62 on: February 14, 2013, 08:57:37 PM »
The swift fox and leopard frogs are a good example - lets use the Kit Fox to see if I can illustrate what I was getting at. Bear in mind a small predator is difficult to compare to a mountain dwelling ungulate.

Both occur in limited populations in the southern portion of the Province. They are at the northernmost perimeter of there natural habitat.

Kit Fox were extirpated approximately 75 years ago. The decision to bring them back was not fully thought out however. The fox was returned and has been doing relatively well. One large problem is that he seems to like to eat sage grouse. The sage grouse are also under supreme pressure (I was talking to a Biologist last year that figures they will be extirpated within the next few years). A real good example of how we should really get a handle on our populations before we start moving animals around. Is it entirely the foxes fault? Absolutely not - roads, oil and gas exploration and high commodity prices (plowing rangeland for agriculture) are all factors.

There has even been discussion about bringing transplant Sage grouse back to help bolster the population - but many folks who are looking at the big picture see the conversion and fragmentation of native rangeland as having altered the suitability of the area to sustain sage grouse. 

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Re: Changes to Sheep Hunting
« Reply #63 on: February 14, 2013, 09:07:30 PM »
The swift fox and leopard frogs are a good example - lets use the Kit Fox to see if I can illustrate what I was getting at. Bear in mind a small predator is difficult to compare to a mountain dwelling ungulate.

Both occur in limited populations in the southern portion of the Province. They are at the northernmost perimeter of there natural habitat.

Kit Fox were extirpated approximately 75 years ago. The decision to bring them back was not fully thought out however. The fox was returned and has been doing relatively well. One large problem is that he seems to like to eat sage grouse. The sage grouse are also under supreme pressure (I was talking to a Biologist last year that figures they will be extirpated within the next few years). A real good example of how we should really get a handle on our populations before we start moving animals around. Is it entirely the foxes fault? Absolutely not - roads, oil and gas exploration and high commodity prices (plowing rangeland for agriculture) are all factors.

There has even been discussion about bringing transplant Sage grouse back to help bolster the population - but many folks who are looking at the big picture see the conversion and fragmentation of native rangeland as having altered the suitability of the area to sustain sage grouse.

Just goes to show that habitat is key. It's the same story with everything, the pheasant hunting isn't as good as it was 15 years ago and the reason is habitat. Not saying that there aren't other factors, but areas will only support the numbers that they can. You want increased numbers and healthier populations, enhance the habitat.

"if you build it, they will come"

deerman

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Re: Changes to Sheep Hunting
« Reply #64 on: February 22, 2013, 05:26:21 PM »
At the AF&GA conference and Fish & Wildlife read off "Proposed changes"  (proposed means they might or might not happen)  Shortening sheep season by 7 days at the end of the season.


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Re: Changes to Sheep Hunting
« Reply #65 on: February 27, 2013, 11:46:31 AM »
Will this 7 day shorter season be applied to outfitters as well?

deerman

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Re: Changes to Sheep Hunting
« Reply #66 on: February 27, 2013, 12:34:07 PM »

Yes it will be according to Jim A. who spoke to a number of questions at the floor mike, from concerned hunters.

sheepguide

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Re: Changes to Sheep Hunting
« Reply #67 on: February 28, 2013, 07:53:19 PM »
Not sure to the truth behind it but have heard from a few that the big reason for no changes is the inability to change sheep outfitting to match resident changes yet. And to avoid huge resident uproar they decided on no change. Again just hear say from the sheep hunting community but is the word in the mountain.
I hunt sheep to see over the next mountain not to measure the next trophy!

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sheepguide

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Re: Changes to Sheep Hunting
« Reply #68 on: February 28, 2013, 08:30:15 PM »
No im not at all Justin. Change in some areas is needed and the longer it is put off the larger the chance of that change affecting sheep hunting on a large scale.
But I am glad the week shorter season has been removed as that was a huge joke. The only sheep closing the season a week early is going to protect are mainly park rams. That last week or so is when most of them park rams start moving and leaving the protection of their sanctuaries and them are the sheep that should be targeted. Sure a couple province rams will be spared but on a whole it will change nothing!!
Size limits, age limits or harvest totals of resident non sanctuary rams is the only thing that will improve things.
I hunt sheep to see over the next mountain not to measure the next trophy!

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sheepguide

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Re: Changes to Sheep Hunting
« Reply #69 on: February 28, 2013, 09:21:01 PM »
Full curl will not incure anymore short sheep than what there is now. With imaginary lines being placed by humans/hunters there will alway be error no matter if that line is front of eye or across the face.
But it will increase the age of rams harvested. And yes some rams will never make full curl but they will have a good mature base for our heards.

As for waits. Depends on the duration how it will affect things. But in Alberta it's a joke as so many hunters just feel its their right to harvest what they wish! To so many a bighorn sheep has no more significance than the overpopulating whitetails.

I hunt sheep to see over the next mountain not to measure the next trophy!

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Lurch

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Re: Changes to Sheep Hunting
« Reply #70 on: February 28, 2013, 11:04:20 PM »
I am glad to see no change.

I need reliable data to support any proposed changes.




sheepguide

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Re: Changes to Sheep Hunting
« Reply #71 on: March 01, 2013, 12:06:44 AM »
Bingo... I agree show proof or fix probblem were there is a problem.

And what proof are you guys going to accept?? 
Any wildlife counts or studies ever done in Alberta have been bad mouthed and discredited by the sportsmen and women. So tell me what will ever change that? As soon as it affects outdoors people negativly then it's got to be wrong. And that has been proven a hundred times in this province!

So please inform us how that proof can be obtained so that even if negative people will accept it!

And you say fix problems where there is problems. I'd Luke to see the reaction of the users of the uncontrolled zones when limitations are put on just the problematic areas. Sheep hunters are going to hunt and they will floc to them uncontrolled areas and then the bitching will start when the hunter numbers in other zones double. As well the negative affect this will have on the populations in them areas. Throw a larger number if hunters in there and the population will take a larger hit and eventually numbers will be affected. There is a reason they are trying any changes on a large scale as zone by zone isn't a viable option.
I hunt sheep to see over the next mountain not to measure the next trophy!

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sheepguide

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Re: Changes to Sheep Hunting
« Reply #72 on: March 01, 2013, 06:52:36 AM »
I've fought the draw from day one!! I've pushed age and curl restrictions and well as wait times according to age of ram harvested!

But you avoided the question Justin!!  What proof and or group are you going to believe? Anything that has been studied or counted (sheep, antelope etc) have been discredited by many guys such as yourself! So are you saying you know more? Who would you listen to and believe?

Counts and studies will never be accepted by the people affected unless it affects them positively! And it doesn't matter who does the count, how accurate it is and how much proof there is.
I hunt sheep to see over the next mountain not to measure the next trophy!

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Lurch

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Re: Changes to Sheep Hunting
« Reply #73 on: March 01, 2013, 07:07:43 AM »
And what proof are you guys going to accept?? 
Any wildlife counts or studies ever done in Alberta have been bad mouthed and discredited by the sportsmen and women. So tell me what will ever change that? As soon as it affects outdoors people negativly then it's got to be wrong. And that has been proven a hundred times in this province!

So please inform us how that proof can be obtained so that even if negative people will accept it!

And you say fix problems where there is problems. I'd Luke to see the reaction of the users of the uncontrolled zones when limitations are put on just the problematic areas. Sheep hunters are going to hunt and they will floc to them uncontrolled areas and then the bitching will start when the hunter numbers in other zones double. As well the negative affect this will have on the populations in them areas. Throw a larger number if hunters in there and the population will take a larger hit and eventually numbers will be affected. There is a reason they are trying any changes on a large scale as zone by zone isn't a viable option.

What proof will I accept? This isn't about me firstly - it should be about the resource.

Let me take a stab at this though.

I would be willing to believe any changes to regulation be based on sound science. Sound science usually is spawned from well planned experiments that have the objective well planned out. For example - in this instance one might need to sit down and say - we think there is an issue with the size of Rams in (insert area).  A person would then develop a list of methods on just how you would address what you wish to learn - eg. isolate the problem as best you can with the other variables present. During this time you would also develop the amount of repetitions and replicates for the experimental design (how many times do I repeat - and how many locations). You also would establish a "check" portion of the experiment - in this case an are that you might consider the most normal (eg. Park population) that you use as a benchmark for the results of your study.

Conduct the experiment. Record the observations and develop some conclusions. At the conclusion stage it is important to outline the limitations on any such research.
All of this will give you one scientific paper (lets add it needs to be peer reviewed as well).

Then the process needs to be repeated - perhaps with the learnings from the original study incorporated into any deficiencies learned from the first study.

Once you have many papers - it is easier to see trends and have robust data to build policy on. I would love to see policy built on strong, defendable, peer reviewed data.


Wildlife count methods are improving all the time - as is research Darcy. Take Grizzlies for example. When the discussion to shut the season ws happening - they based that data on ONE study done in the Hinton area. Since then they have stuffed some money  in - developed more robust DNA sampling methods and have increased testing numbers (repetition) and areas (replicates). What they are finding is that the data from the Hinton area may indeed be very different from what is happening elsewhere. I am hearing grumblings within SRD that we have a good enough population to hunt G Bears in certain areas, but the political component is the roadblock.

I am aware of the Coltman paper as the piece they use to support regulation change - we all know it's deficiencies. I certainly do not feel that a single paper on a artificial population is grounds to develop even regional legislation let alone Province wide.

Just my opinion.

 
« Last Edit: March 01, 2013, 08:15:25 AM by Lurch »

Lurch

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Re: Changes to Sheep Hunting
« Reply #74 on: March 01, 2013, 07:12:05 AM »
I've fought the draw from day one!! I've pushed age and curl restrictions and well as wait times according to age of ram harvested!

But you avoided the question Justin!!  What proof and or group are you going to believe? Anything that has been studied or counted (sheep, antelope etc) have been discredited by many guys such as yourself! So are you saying you know more? Who would you listen to and believe?

Counts and studies will never be accepted by the people affected unless it affects them positively! And it doesn't matter who does the count, how accurate it is and how much proof there is.

Counts are subjective - SRD discredits counts themselves.

Studies that are peer reviewed (and more than one) is where we need to head Darcy - the whole idea with peer review is that the data must be defendable or else it can not be published.

And I certainly do not know more that SRD - but it makes me very nervous when even a layman like myself can discredit policy becasue they have a lack of good data.

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Re: Changes to Sheep Hunting
« Reply #75 on: March 01, 2013, 09:52:08 AM »
Good to hear there are no changes upcoming, thanks to all who wrote letters and voiced your opinions.

I hope they learn from this debacle.

deerman

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Re: Changes to Sheep Hunting
« Reply #76 on: March 01, 2013, 10:17:07 AM »
Bingo... I agree show proof or fix probblem were there is a problem.

Have any of the people looking for "proof" read the documents with the "BigHorn management plan"?

Here is a part:

Trophy Bighorn Sheep Management in Alberta
Bighorn Sheep Management
DRAFT -- Discussion Paper -- DRAFT
In response to stakeholder concerns of a decline in the quality and quantity of trophy rams available in some areas, SRD has completed an assessment of 35 years of trophy sheep registration and aerial survey data for bighorn sheep. The assessment indicates the harvest levels need to be adjusted to bring them into line with the management guidelines in the Management Plan for Bighorn Sheep in Alberta (1993). There are no immediate regulation changes planned, but we clearly need to work with provincial hunters and outfitter/guides to achieve a better balance with our objectives. To achieve that balance, we’re looking for discussion and input from stakeholders about the information contained in this discussion paper. Send your comments to Jim Allen, Head of Game Management, James.Allen@gov.ab.ca.


Looks to me like a statement that there were concerns from Non Government Organizations (NGOs) that there may be a problem.  Then 35 years of data from sheep registration was looked at and input from people was requested.

Then things progressed from there.


Lurch

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Re: Changes to Sheep Hunting
« Reply #77 on: March 01, 2013, 11:16:01 AM »
Have any of the people looking for "proof" read the documents with the "BigHorn management plan"?

Here is a part:

Trophy Bighorn Sheep Management in Alberta
Bighorn Sheep Management
DRAFT -- Discussion Paper -- DRAFT
In response to stakeholder concerns of a decline in the quality and quantity of trophy rams available in some areas, SRD has completed an assessment of 35 years of trophy sheep registration and aerial survey data for bighorn sheep. The assessment indicates the harvest levels need to be adjusted to bring them into line with the management guidelines in the Management Plan for Bighorn Sheep in Alberta (1993). There are no immediate regulation changes planned, but we clearly need to work with provincial hunters and outfitter/guides to achieve a better balance with our objectives. To achieve that balance, we’re looking for discussion and input from stakeholders about the information contained in this discussion paper. Send your comments to Jim Allen, Head of Game Management, James.Allen@gov.ab.ca.


Looks to me like a statement that there were concerns from Non Government Organizations (NGOs) that there may be a problem.  Then 35 years of data from sheep registration was looked at and input from people was requested.

Then things progressed from there.

I guess maybe there were immediate changes planned.

They wanted discussion around the paper - and they got it Duffy. That is why they have backed off.

I think I will defer to MAV if he is willing to comment. He has likely forgot more on this issue than I know.


MAV

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Re: Changes to Sheep Hunting
« Reply #78 on: March 01, 2013, 12:26:40 PM »
Don't confuse me with the guy with the answers I'm as biased as anyone on this issue so consider that when reading anything I post here:

Come on duffy, that draft paper is all part and parcel of the problem here. Instead of putting time and energy into that draft managment paper they should have been putting time and energy into getting the data put together and out to the public.

Hell you were at conference weren't you, word is this exact topic was brought directly to Jim Allen and when asked who these stakeholders are that requested these changes he couldn't name them even when asked was it APOS? No. Was it ABA? No. Was it AFGA? No. Was it WSF? No. So who was it that initiated this.

My sense is that they finally hit the wall, the critiscim was just to much and they have nothing to back up there claims. I truly hope they take a step back organize there effort into getting the info they need to make some decisions and move forward. We all have to be a little thankful for this delay but in the end we are still no closer to fiding out the truth of what is happening with the herd.

I sympathize a lot with SG because he has seen a decline in the number of sheep in his back yard, but to suggest that the problem is because of genetic harm and trophy hunting is ridiculous. To me this one line of reasoning smacks so much of an agenda driven effort by some, makes me want to fight this tooth and nail. Yet we are no closer to understanding why in a couple SMA's we are seeing declining numbers.

The original Sheep Management Plan has the history of sheep hunting and the numbers and quality of the harvest over the years. After the late 40's when hunting was wide open and every ram on the mountain was targeted and after the die offs, there were management changes that among other things went to 4/5 curls and other season reductions ect. The population was around 1500. Genetic harm at its finest. What happened? Numbers increased, trophy quality increased and some of the biggest rams ever harvested where from the period after the darkest days. There was no genetic harm, otherwise were did these book ram genetics find there way back into the smallest recorded herd in Alberta. We are no were near this, in fact we may very well be bumping up against some carrying capacity issues with things like winter range encroachment and predator interactions.

SRD needs to get there bios doing one thing right now, compile your winter surveys and without bias release the numbers. They need to come up with the proper means to compare sheep from 40-50 years ago to todays, they need to make sure when they are measuring sheep that the guys doing it are all doing it the same way, they need to come up with parameters that are valid not some focused points designed to come up with the answers they want. Then we can move forward. After talking with someone I respect very much inside SRD I think that oppurtunity exists and those efforts are being looked at. Hopefully his views will be moved up onto equal footing with the focused view of genetic harm and the elimination of trophy hunting.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2013, 12:30:54 PM by MAV »
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MAV

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Re: Changes to Sheep Hunting
« Reply #79 on: March 01, 2013, 12:28:06 PM »
One final thing.

If SRD was on the right path, it should have been defendable with the proper information. So far that has not happened.
“Things which matter most must never be at the mercy of things that matter least”
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