If anyone has concerns or comments maybe you should come to the information seminars at the Wild Sheep Banquet.

WILD SHEEP FOUNDATION ALBERTA SEMINAR SCHEDULE AGM & FUNDRAISER

Saturday, March 24, 2012
Sheraton Hotel, Red Deer

9:30 - 10:15 AM
Kathreen Ruckstahl
Bighorn sheep Population Density and Health
Monitoring - K Country and Sheep River Sanctuary

10:15 - 11:15 AM
Kevin Hurley, Disease Update, National WSF Initiatives

11:15 - 12 Noon
Jim Allen, Alberta Fish and Wildlife, Alberta Sheep Management, Transplants, Predator Management Update

1:15 - 2:15 PM
Jim Allen - continued
2:15 PM - 3 PM
General Q&A


Always people saying they are uninformed so here is a chance to get the info you all want! I hope to see a full room this year. Was only maybe 15 - 20 people showed up last year.

SG

I'm not a fan of sticking them on any badland or priarie either but there is a lot of good we could do with surplus.  At least sell them to the U.S and use the money to helecopter down a bunch of wolf packs for starters

 Regarding our Sheep status and the proposed hunting regulation changes, I've been  busy working with a few of NA's leading sheep biologists on the situation. Quite simply, we are being sold a personal agenda by a few individuals within F&W that has nothing to do with the actual health of our sheep. This is a very alarming situation, that has ramifications for ALL hunting in Alberta, and around the world.

As SG suggests, please get involved and educated. Decisions made on Sheep Management based of F&W's concerns could effect hunting regulations of ALL animals.




A dominant theme in this thread seems to be a desire for financial compensation for these sheep.

 So, what price do you guys suggest? How much for a ewe, or a young ram, or a trophy ram?


Warning, it's a trick question. 

I'll take a stab at it WB.  I think the price should be that costs are paid for to catch them and enough extra to actually do something to help the population we do have in place already!!  That exact price I do not know but I will tell you it would be expensive.  It they won't pay it then we keep them and repopulate the areas that need to be using the $$ that the auction brings in every year.  Where is that money going??? 

I can't get on AO and check out the thread on sheep and the changes but I am interested to know the backroom talk of it all if you care to share?  I think the mains issues with the population if there is one is that some areas get hit by the native hunters and the predators are also hurting the populations.  Most areas I assume are up to par or better than they have been in the past.  My 2 cents worth

Nube,  the reason there is no dollar value put on the sheep is to maintain the legislated classification of the beasts as wildlife, with recognition that the government simply manages the population in the interest of the public. Refer to the North American Model for Wildlife Management.

Selling these animals takes us down the road towards "Ownership" of wildlife. Lets say the price for an Alberta BH sheep is determined to be $5000. Now the precident has been established regarding Value. You want to hunt sheep? Be prepared to pay the price. $5000 harvest fee. See the connection?

-----------------------------------

Albertans are being presented nothing but propoganda regarding the presented "sheep concerns".

F&W claims that selective hunting (4/5 curl) HAS CAUSED genetic damage to the population, and that the rams are now smaller in horn size and take longer to grow to legal age. This is the issue I have been talking about for years, the propoganda postulated by Coltman and gang, (Jorgenson - Alberta senior wildlife biologist,  Festa-bianchet, Hogg, etc)

They will not provide any data to back up their claim, just summaries that are contradictory. Even from their own summaries, only 3/10 Sheep Management Areas (SMA) have shown a decrease in horn size over the last 40 years. I'll bet that the data will show this decrease is in the order of 2% or less, or even that the data manipulated.

The second claim made by F&W is that there is a province wide shortage of Legal rams in the population, stating that only 2/10 Sheep management areas (SMA) are at a desired level. I have the data that proves this to be false. There are 2/10 SMA's that may have a concern. not 8/10.


While anecdotally metioned, F&W is NOT giving sufficient credence to habitat quality, herd desities, yearly weather conditions, stressors (predation and competition on winter ranges- wild horses), human error in data aquisition. The Claim is that Hunting is the problem, despite that F&W cannot ( will not) even prove that there is a problem.


This sheep concern is agenda driven. Jorgenson desires to have ALL big game animals on a draw system. Sheep hunting is the starter.

We are being sold a bridge to the end of general season hunting.


I tried to Attached the Alberta Bighorn Sheep Summary powerpoint being offered as proof of a concern. No data, just blended cherry picked summaries. It won't upload here (too large), I can send it to you by email.

Who did the power point you have Buff?
SG

Right on worst thing is that there are to many agendas out there for studies ever to be unbiased. Thats the bad part about studies is there is always a study to show any other study wrong. How does one ever know who to beleive? Many studies ive read dont jive with what me and many others I know are seeing in certain areas so what, are the studies right?
Worst thing with studies is that if they are never going to say there is no problems as if they do they are going to cut there funding and no one out there doing them studies will ever want that to happen.  So im thinking we are going to be stuck with biased opinions pushing studies to change regulations.
SG

The thing that I've noticed is that people are confusing is the total population level with huntable levels. Not saying any of the numbers are right or wrong but from the stuff I have read they say populations are stable but the huntable ram populations in some areas are of concern. This is why proposed hunting changes are being brought up not because of issues with the overal population level.
And in some I've read it's not even about ram numbers but about the age structure of the rams in some areas.
So the way I take what I've been told and such is that changes are nothing to do with the overall bighorn sheep population of Alberta.

Again just my perception of things being brought forth.
SG

Yep makes sense. Just was pointing out what I sense there decisions are being made on. I do know that a couple of the zones in question have dropped in harvest and average age of rams killed and I beleive that is having a big bearing on some decisions.  Biggest issue right now is how to limit the change to just these zones without having adverse affects on the other zones in Alberta. The other issue is one of these zones has more NR tags than it was originaly supposed to. It was supposed to have 4 just like the surrounding zones but instead it has 8 because of an old outfitter that is a good friend of mine was able to manipulate the system many years ago and have tags moved from another area and transfered into his area. So step one is a predator cull, step 2 is getting these tags back to at least the original allotment,  step three is reassesing the percentage of NR tags in all zones. And third if needed is to manage resident hunters. 
 
But right now I am more concerned on the fact that they say populations are stable but yet many areas I frequent and have frequented for 24yrs that used to winter a lot of ewes, lambs and many park rams as well as the resident sheep populations are void of any sheep in the winter(and a pile of others have mentioned this to me as well). Makes me worry about what is causing this and what it is affecting!

SG

Thanks Nube,

  The reply from the minister doesn't add much to the fight for truthful information from F&W. But that's ok. This new minister does seem to be listening to the public, and is asking his staff some tough questions in response to public concerns.  We may finally have a minister that cares about the portfolio.


The Sheep situation at Cadomin is about to implode. Despite previous knowledge and experience with how "unnatural" sheep sanctuaries follow a path of dramatic population growth and severe collapse, ie. Sheep River and Ram Mountain, the scenario is playing itself out yet again.

The bios in charge of the sheep here are seeing the signs of imminent doom to the herd. The glory days of Cadomin Sheep are over, it is all downhill from here.



 SH,   There is a difference between agenda driven "research" and data driven research.  We have several great wildlife scientists  that do not put the cart (agenda) before the horse (agenda). 


 Who's confused about Total sheep population vs Ram percentages and legal ram ratios?
 
 This is exactly the information that many of us are trying to clarify with F&W, the actual 2011 Aerial Sheep survey numbers and harvest stats (licenced and non licenced) by SMA. They have been promoting a province wide concern, using blended summaries and conclusions, without providing any actual data.

F&W started this concern promotion by stating to AGMAG that only 2 out of 10 SMAs have the desired legal ram population, based on the requirements set out in the Alberta Sheep Management Plan.  Based on the information I have been able to aquire so far, the legal ram composition is at required levels in 8 of the 10 SMAs.

F&W has been caught fudging the concern. We have been offered to buy into an agenda, not science, and they (Jorgenson) got caught.


Hopefully we now have the discussion down to the real data and real concerns. If there are legitimate reasons that NEED changes to hunting regulations in areas of concerns, then F&W will get the support the Sheep need.

I am NOT convinced that restricting sheep hunting in the areas of possible concern will solve any problems. If the herd is in trouble from due to mortality factors other than hunting (habitat, predation, non licenced human induced mortality), then restricting licenced hunting may have absolutley zero positve effect on the sheep. There are other ways to help sheep than to simply further restrict hunting; Habitat enhancement, predator and non native competition (wild horses) control, access control (motorized access restrictions).

We need to not jump the gun here. Lets identify any problems, review possible sources, and then make decisions on how to rectify the problem.


 

Anyone ever hear what the average harvest is from Natives every year?