Author Topic: Slammers (Read 6282 times)

sheepguide · « **Reply #20 on:** January 24, 2012, 07:17:47 PM »

Your right Nube we probably wont understand how you guys think. And there is nothing wrong with guys having different opinions. Just stated my "Opinion" and obviously a few others on what I think of "Slams", "Books" and "Lists". Whats the hardest part about getting the North American 29? Being a top hunter? Nope! Having supirior gear? Nope. Its all about time and money. Thats the total end of that story. Why can Shockey hold out for nothing but big animals? Because he can afford to hunt it again if he doesnt get one. What made his 29 bigger than some others? Money! So what made his more accomplished than others? Money!! Some guys can only afford that hunt once, so now because they cant afford to do multiple hunts they choose to shoot a trophy thats a bit smaller. What kept them from doing what Shockey did? Skill, effort maybe physical ability? Nope basicly it all comes down to money!!.
Some areas guys hunt have different quality of animals. A guy that is hunting a zone with an average of 320" on elk and kills a 380" did more than a guy that hunts an area that averages many 400"bulls and kills a 401". But the way many guys would look at it that guy with the just average 401" did something far above that guy that got the way above average 370". Areas make a huge difference when hunting and it affects it even more when looking at paying to go hunting. Lots cant afford the top zones but they may hunt just as hard and still kill a top trophy for the area but since it doesnt score as well guys that follow scores mark him lower. Just doesnt make a ton of sense to me.
Dont get me wrong Shockey is a good hunter. But when it comes to getting things like the North American 29, Grandslams and such has way more to do with getting tags and the amount of money you can spend then ones hunting ability or knowledge. If you have the cash to be able to hunt top trophy zones, purchase tags in these top zones, research the best areas for the outfitters that are producing the biggest animals and afford to go home empty handed then pretty much anyone can do what he did.

As for the score on say 200" whitetails. Like I said if you just see the scores it means absolutly nothing on how good a hunter is or how accomplished he is. Its different if like Bambi said he knows how the guy hunts. Then you know something. But to look at a list of scores in a book and say wow that guy has a pile of big deer, he must be a top hunter. Maybe he is and maybe he isnt, impossible to judge him that way.

SG

sheepguide · « **Reply #21 on:** January 24, 2012, 07:27:29 PM »

And hope I didnt come off as trying to battle just was putting some of my thoughts forward. Everyone looks at it a different way. I respect that guys like scores and lists and like reading there side of things also but if there arent discussions like this Nube how will up and coming hunters and even veteran hunter see the different angles and ideas that will help them form their own opinions as to what they beleive in?

To me your thinking one sided. If I dont understand your thoughts it aint worth talking about? So unless I agree with you your not gunna waste your time discussing it?
SG

walleyes · « **Reply #22 on:** January 24, 2012, 09:43:24 PM »

I certainly agree with some of your views on the matter Darcy but I can't help but think that many of the hunters on this list are certainly very good hunters as well. For some of them I would imagine it is more of a personal goal they have set for themselves and not a competition. There is certainly nothing wrong with setting personal goals and achieving them. Yes time and money are a huge factor probably the biggest issue but still just because someone has time and money doesn't mean they are a poor hunter either. Just the shear experience of being on that many hunts would make a person a better hunter. Someone like Shockey has hunted the world,, many places and game we will never see and has experienced hunting styles from many regions in the world,, that has to make a person a better hunter. Now this doesn't mean he is the best at every animal he hunts I doubt he even thinks that. But there is no denying the facts and the facts are men like this are accomplished hunters and they have the evidence to prove it not just stories and hot air but the actual proof of their hunts..

nube · « **Reply #23 on:** January 24, 2012, 10:27:27 PM »

I like your last line Walleyes

" But there is no denying the facts and the facts are men like this are accomplished hunters and they have the evidence to prove it not just stories and hot air but the actual proof of their hunts.." (or otherwise what is hanging on the wall)

sheepguide · « **Reply #24 on:** January 25, 2012, 01:27:25 AM »

Quote from: nube on January 24, 2012, 10:27:27 PM

I like your last line Walleyes

" But there is no denying the facts and the facts are men like this are accomplished hunters and they have the evidence to prove it not just stories and hot air but the actual proof of their hunts.." (or otherwise what is hanging on the wall)

Yep the trophies are proof that they have harvested animals! And some of the guys are good hunters for sure. I agree totally 100%, but them trophies arent what made them accomplished and dont make them accomplished! The hunts, the skills, the knowledge learned on these hunts and the experience make them accomplished not by harvesting an animal!
And like I said Walleyes the animals on the wall and the score of that animal show you nothing on how great or knowledgable of a hunter that person is.

There are a lot of poachers out there that have many book animals on their walls so they have proof too, so does that make them accomplished hunters just because they can show you the heads or tell you the scores or make up a fancy story about what took place? Like I stated without knowing the factual story behind the hunt you will never know a hunters true accomplishment.

Record books and scores show what a game animal accomplished not neccesarily what a hunter has.

Quick question for you guys, does it take a more accomplished hunter to take a 190" 4yr old white tail or a 155" 10+yr old whitetail? Is that hunter shooting that 10yr old deer less accomplished hunter just because he shot a deer that is on the down hill slide on antler growth or has poor genetics? Obviously its more mature, has outsmarted many hunters and so is wise and warry by age but yet since his rack doesnt meet some guys standard that came up with a scoring system it is considered less of an accomplishment.

HUNTS MAKE A HUNTER, HARVESTS ARE A BONUS FOR A GREAT EXPERIENCE.

SG

ishootbambi · « **Reply #25 on:** January 25, 2012, 02:10:30 AM »

darcy, i dont know if youre too cynical, or im too trusting. for the most part when someone tells me about their hunt, i believe it for the most part unless i have reason not too. if someone starts to contradict themselves in their story, i get suspicious, but when someone has consistent success, my first thought isnt that hes cheating. the talk about a guy like donny zenner is a good example. ive known a few guys like him over the years, and im embarrassed to say that when i was a young guy and didnt know any better, i believed some of the garbage i heard. a thread was started about donny on this forum. i really dont know the guy, but im willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

the question about a190 4 year old vs a 155 10 year old is again trying to say which is better. i think by most anyones standards, they would both be great trophies, and well above average bucks. i can tell you staright up for me score isnt the ultimate decider. in fact i have a deer that is at least 11 1/2. the farmer had a stack of sheds off him for several years. when i got him he grossed 176, but his biggest sheds were in the 200 range....typical. i asked about buying them, but he didnt want to sell. imagine my shock when he sold them all and more for 300 bucks total 2 years later!!!! i would have given him that much just for the sheds off mine. anyway, that buck i consider my greatest trophy deer. i have some bigger, buut i doubt ill ever kill one more rare. i dont think hes better than the others....or anyone elses.....but i do like him best.

sheepguide · « **Reply #26 on:** January 25, 2012, 10:01:13 AM »

Its not that I dont beleive what guys say about hunts im just trying to show that scores and lists dont neccesarily show how accomplished a hunter is. Not saying one guy is better than the other either I simply stated that going by lists, slams and scores alone show very little on how much a hunter has truley accomplished over his career!

Its cool so many guys are impressed by the number of trophies a guy has on the wall and the more high scoring ones the better, I just look at a hunters different.

SG

walleyes · « **Reply #27 on:** January 25, 2012, 10:55:54 AM »

I don't think anyone on here is saying that just because a guy has a wall full of trophies that he is a great hunter. Some guys with a wall full are awesome hunters some aren't. But I certainly wouldn't call a guy that does have a full wall a poor hunter just because he has the full wall. The people on the list mentioned are all very seasoned hunters that have a deep love for the hunt, they are by no means idiots or just rich boys playing a game. From what I gather from anything I have seen from them they are very dedicated and sincere hunters that truly enjoy the hunt as much as their accomplishments.

With all do respect Darcy, every time this topic comes up or even anything close to it you are on it like a dirty shirt, its like you have an inane jealousy for these people that accomplish this feat and you want to make sure no one thinks they are a better hunter than you are.. Relax already,, we know you are the ultimate hunter you don't have to stomp your feet and hauler to prove it.

nube · « **Reply #28 on:** January 25, 2012, 11:58:29 AM »

"With all do respect Darcy, every time this topic comes up or even anything close to it you are on it like a dirty shirt, its like you have an inane jealousy for these people that accomplish this feat and you want to make sure no one thinks they are a better hunter than you are.. Relax already,, we know you are the ultimate hunter you don't have to stomp your feet and hauler to prove it."
+1 exactly why my silence in this topic.

ishootbambi · « **Reply #29 on:** January 25, 2012, 01:38:46 PM »

i dont know about that walleyes....i remember sg telling us about a guy, or maybe a group from near where he lives that take some imopressive heads every year, but do it in some shady ways. i think what darcy is saying is that the end result alone isnt the only way to judge a guy, and seems to be basing it on that guy(s). and i agree, i dont think any list or scores is the be all end all for anything.

the question here is just which slammer do you give the biggest thumbs up to. i just wanted to know which accomplishemnt do guys like best. i chose shockey, for the reasons stated. if the question had been which hunter do you think has the most skill, then that would be different, and my answer would change. im not asking that by the way.

HarvestMaster · « **Reply #30 on:** January 25, 2012, 02:54:39 PM »

My vote has to go to Fred eichler. Note the period. He completed the slam with a recurve which give menage respect for him. I personally think a recurve is the hardest bow to shoot and I'll likely never be good enough to shoot a recurve, so I'm sticking with my longbow. In the words of Howard Hill, "I'm not good enough to shoot a recurve". When I met Fred it was obvious he was the real deal and was just as excited about another guys success as he was of his own. I saw a video of him spot and stalk a mountain caribouand from that moment I was sure I had never seen anything like that before.

My correction on eichler's bow was not meant to be pretentious.

My two cents,
Adam

sheepguide · « **Reply #31 on:** January 26, 2012, 12:01:18 AM »

Well I had a big long response to the jealousy comments but I figured what the hell, I guess if they think my ideas make me jealouse then whatever. I dont like scores, slams or lists and some do but for me to try and discuse and state that and the reasoning behind it just makes me a jealouse hunter in some guys eyes then they are as one sided as they call me.
I do know though that if I ever do have the qualifications for a book, list or slam you will never see it registered or documented!

Sorry to have tried to discuse the other side of the picture, maybe this forum isnt that far from the other one

SG

nube · « **Reply #32 on:** January 26, 2012, 07:57:03 AM »

"Sorry to have tried to discuse the other side of the picture, maybe this forum isnt that far from the other one "

Come on Darcy. Really, do you have to pout about it? We still love you brotha. Just cause we don't all agree with every thought you have doesn't mean you have to quit on us. I'll let you in on a secret. I haven't registered any of my book animals either and never will. See we are a little the same.

sheepguide · « **Reply #33 on:** January 26, 2012, 12:09:24 PM »

No pouting here man!! And doesnt make a difference to me if guys agree as if everyone agreed we wouldnt have these discussions and life would be pretty boring!

And the comment on the other forum was more due to the fact of if I disagree with others I try and explain why I feel a certain way but then just get called jealouse or pouting. I like hearing why guys feel strongly the way they do even if my ideas are the total opposite and have had great discussions about such things. Maybe some day in one of these discusions someone will put points forth that will make me think different as these such discussions are what gives people insite about different ideas and thoughts. But to often guys would just rather say I feel this way and if you dont I aint gunna talk to you about it. Put your points forth and discuse why the scores mean alot to guys and why a wall full of trophies means so much. Dont just say thats the way I think and thats that. Going back and forth can get alot of points out there that many others may not have thought about including myself. But to just say well they will never understand us will never help anyone understand or open up new thoughts towards things such as scoreing and hunt docmentation.

Its all cool, and if I did have to pick someone that has accomplished the 29 id probably go with Fred as well as to me he is the real deal, down to earth when you meet him and still gets just as excited over a fork horn mule deer or a world class animal, has nothing to do with his trophies, his weapon or the stats! No big ajendas just out hunting.

SG

walleyes · « **Reply #34 on:** January 26, 2012, 02:43:17 PM »

We certainly don't want this site to go the route of the other one thats for sure.. Darcy I know you have the best intentions and I have the utmost respect for you as a hunter, I know you are very serious about it. In all honesty maybe a little to seriuos, but hey no harm in that. But brother it just seems every time the books are mentioned or someone brings up a hunters dedication to the sport and their wall reflects it you are on it hard.. Obviously for you and the crowd you are around thats not the case. But possibly for some of the people that are discussed on here it does show their knowledge and dedication. Just accept it and accept their views on it as well.

Hey man I am with you all the way on this as most of us are,, there are many, many a good hunter probably some of the best there are or ever will be that have not an animal on the wall or in the books, we all know that. None of us are that in experienced or that naive not to know that..

Just lighten up a bit bro and let people enjoy their point of view as well.

And I apologize for calling you a jealous guy,, deep down I know thats not your motive..

ishootbambi · « **Reply #35 on:** January 26, 2012, 08:53:37 PM »

let me try this explanation darcy. this slam beeswax isnt really my thing so much. i really do think it is all about blowing smoke up your own skirt. i really think that shows glaringly for the guys that smack a spike deer or a baby bear just to say he did it. thats why i chose shockey in the category....he linited himself to trophy animals only.

to judge a hunter, i think the 900 club is a better benchmark for whitetatils, or the 700 club for mules. to me, that shows a consistent track record for taking only mature above average animals. as a guy who strives to do that myself, i do see a notable accomplishment for anyone who makes that club. i mentioned kaare gunderson earlier. i dont know who is at the top of the heap on totals, but he has to be close. does that makes him a better hunter than the guy who is at 901 from michigan? i doubt it. thats where you get hung up in these talks in that you seem to think its a competition.......you are always the first to say that....how is one guy better than another..... i dont see it that way, i just see guys who have achieved a collection of trophies that i really admire. i love to see the successes of other hunters. when i see a consistently successful hunter, what i recognize is the commitment and dedication it takes to get to that end. anyone can smack a booner from a road by sheer luck...that happens all the time in big buck magazine. there is a kid from grande cache in the lastest issue that did that exactly. i congratulate the kid for what he did, but that doesnt impress me near as much as the guy who takes a big mature animal every year. that guy is putting in a little more time and effort to see his results, and to consistently do it tells me that you work hard in your hunting. i still dont think better is the right word though.....

Shootist · « **Reply #36 on:** January 27, 2012, 09:51:02 AM »

Have to agree with you isb. Shockey put himself above the others with only taking trophy animals.

Enigma · « **Reply #37 on:** January 27, 2012, 06:12:39 PM »

ISB pretty suprised you havent bashed any oilfeild workers on their slams here. Now that I mention it where is long range justin at for this thread?

MAV · « **Reply #38 on:** January 27, 2012, 07:37:24 PM »

WOW you guys...

"Don't bother they'll never understand" "jealous".

That can't be further from the truth. These are valid issues that are based in each of our own minds and are probably hard wired for each individual. Understand that and you won't have to go to those places.

ISB as for the guy that rarely harvests anything anymore you may have hit it on the head, he is not out to prove anything but he does tend to take the fun out of it for himself some times. But if you saw him work in the field or heard him talk about hunting, horses, packing and game in general you'd know immediately what kind of a hunter he is. Completely accomplished within what he hunts.

But back to the lists and story telling and such. I don't post pics I don't tell stories, that isn't my thing and I find no benefit to myself by doing it. The reasons I hunt are my own and I want to keep it that way. As for people posting on here or publishing in a mag I say HAVE AT IT and I love listening to the stories. But we have all seen it, there are stories then there are stories. Some are simply the thrill, beauty and fellowship of the hunt and each of us loves reading those, but others are filled with bravado and chest pounding and each of us gets our hackles up when we read those.

Its the latter that I see as the lists. These say nothing of the animals but are solely for the hunter to get recognition. Now some hunters seem to have humility and are likeable but ultimately I find it a ridiculous list that really means nothing and does nothing to benefit hunting. As SG has said if I shot a musk ox it would have nothing to do with my hunting skills of musk ox because the next one I see will be my first and I'll have to rely entirely on someone else. For me to even hunt them will require money and time and unless I find it to be my calling it will likely be attempted only once. Now if we're talking of game around where I live I would be willing to bet my knowledge would be somewhat respectable in the community. I fear that a lot of people unfortunately confuse the members of these lists as something to look up to but there are some of us that don't buy that.

A list doesn't make the hunter. Again just my opinion, I certainly understand wanting to hunt all those animals but the rest of it; I don't know.

ishootbambi · « **Reply #39 on:** January 27, 2012, 10:37:01 PM »

well enigma/mounting men/bobo or anything else you want to call yourself...it just seems you arent going to ever contribute anything to this forum....or any other. so why are you here? slinking around like a weasel with someone elses pic for an avatar wanting the world to think you are someone important with something intelligent to say. sorry maam, but you arent fooling anyone. you know what i think would be the ultimate slam in alberta......your little pin head in a car door. nothing but a keyboard coward.....