Author Topic: 6 point elk zones  (Read 5068 times)

Guido

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6 point elk zones
« on: March 04, 2013, 11:34:44 AM »
There must be some huge 5 point elk in these zones. Would it be fair to say that the 5 point gene would eventually overcome the 6 point gene. Should there be a 5 point season every 4 years or so?

sheepguide

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Re: 6 point elk zones
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2013, 12:51:52 PM »
No need to alternate years. Just need like some BC zoned and have split seasons. Branch antlered bulls for part of it up to 5pt and then straight 6pt. I think the harvest of the big breeding bulls has a bigger affect on calf mortality and herd numbers than anything else!!
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sheepguide

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Re: 6 point elk zones
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2013, 08:04:30 AM »
Wow am I ever surprised no one has commented on this!!!! It is a big discussion with a few Bio's and could be a future change to some areas. Thought a few hunters here would have an opinion!!
I hunt sheep to see over the next mountain not to measure the next trophy!

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Lurch

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Re: 6 point elk zones
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2013, 08:23:04 AM »
I have an opinion - but I have not seen a great deal of data on it.

I have only hunted in the 6 point zones a minimal amount compared to 3 point zones.

They are two pretty different beasts.

I would like to see some data before I hung my hat on my observations.

JIMMY 808

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Re: 6 point elk zones
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2013, 08:33:01 AM »
No need to alternate years. Just need like some BC zoned and have split seasons. Branch antlered bulls for part of it up to 5pt and then straight 6pt. I think the harvest of the big breeding bulls has a bigger affect on calf mortality and herd numbers than anything else!!

  What would antler size have to do with calf mortality.? 

sheepguide

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Re: 6 point elk zones
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2013, 09:11:15 AM »
Healthy bigger mature bulls support the largest antlers right? Typically the breeding bulls. And the ones taken out in a 6pt season!!!
Ill leave that for a min. And go to beef cows. What do farmers and ranchers breed there cows to! The stronger healthy good genetic bulls as these throw the bigger healthier calves that are stronger, have better immune systems and can get up and get going better on average. Now take most of these top bulls out and allow lower quality bulls that throw smaller weaker calves that are more susceptible to disease and sickness as well as take longer to get up and get going. You now have a larger mortality rate and the herd does not grow.

Now transfer this to elk. Take most of the breeding bulls out and let inferior bulls breed and you have the chance of smaller weaker calves in the spring. These calves can be slower getting up which adds predator harvests on them. As well as these calves are more likely not to survive early season storms and any bugs they may contract. As well you can possibly end up with more open cows due to the fact that they don't allow these other bulls to breed them. And with weaker calves you can have a larger chance of aborted calves due to the health of the animals.
Now if your offspring aren't in numbers exceeding the yearly die off your heards can start to dwindle.

That is why there is a rut!! So the healthiest strongest of the species can procreate to carry on healthy populations. Now harvest all them top breeders and tell me it's not going to cause an affect!!

Just my opinion from what I've seen hunting 6pt zones since most were implemented and the same zones prior to 6pt seasons and talking to a few peopl of a ton more knowledge than I have!! 

I hunt sheep to see over the next mountain not to measure the next trophy!

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Guido

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Re: 6 point elk zones
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2013, 10:02:43 AM »
Healthy bigger mature bulls support the largest antlers right? Typically the breeding bulls. And the ones taken out in a 6pt season!!!
Ill leave that for a min. And go to beef cows. What do farmers and ranchers breed there cows to! The stronger healthy good genetic bulls as these throw the bigger healthier calves that are stronger, have better immune systems and can get up and get going better on average. Now take most of these top bulls out and allow lower quality bulls that throw smaller weaker calves that are more susceptible to disease and sickness as well as take longer to get up and get going. You now have a larger mortality rate and the herd does not grow.

Now transfer this to elk. Take most of the breeding bulls out and let inferior bulls breed and you have the chance of smaller weaker calves in the spring. These calves can be slower getting up which adds predator harvests on them. As well as these calves are more likely not to survive early season storms and any bugs they may contract. As well you can possibly end up with more open cows due to the fact that they don't allow these other bulls to breed them. And with weaker calves you can have a larger chance of aborted calves due to the health of the animals.
Now if your offspring aren't in numbers exceeding the yearly die off your heards can start to dwindle.

That is why there is a rut!! So the healthiest strongest of the species can procreate to carry on healthy populations. Now harvest all them top breeders and tell me it's not going to cause an affect!!

Just my opinion from what I've seen hunting 6pt zones since most were implemented and the same zones prior to 6pt seasons and talking to a few peopl of a ton more knowledge than I have!!

A 2 year old 5 point may have better genetics than an 8 year old 6 point. So # of points doesn't necesarily make for a healthier calf.
Also, a 5 point isn't genetically inferior to a 6 point, just has 1 less point. Doesn't make it less healthy. Just my thoughts. I have been wrong before.
Anyways, back to my question, would the 5 point gene ever wipe out the 6 point in any certain zone. Or would natural migration take care of the abundance of 5 pointers?
« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 10:05:13 AM by Guido »

walleyes

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Re: 6 point elk zones
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2013, 10:26:38 AM »
Good point Guido..

A bull may have the genetics of a 6 point or the capability to make a 6 point just because it doesn't get the chance to make it doesn't remove those genetics.

Points on horns don't make better genetics,, age can do this on its own. I spent a large amount of time in the Suffield block about 9 years to be exact and had a good amount of time to observe undisturbed Elk herds. It would surprise you to see what takes place. Horn size does not a herd bull make. I witnessed more than once large 5 point bulls or smaller 6 point bulls dominent in a herd while only a couple miles away, large 6 point bulls and even 7 point bulls herded up togther and pushed out of the herd and not the breeding bulls.

AxeMan

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Re: 6 point elk zones
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2013, 10:28:02 AM »
Same thoughts as Lurch here.  I am just not up to speed enough on the issue to comment intelligently.  I am not a big elk hunter.  I take a cow every 4 or 5 years when my draw ticket gets pulled.  That could change in the future though.

I certainly agree that selective breeding and passing on of certain genes can affect traits in just a few generations.  I know this from livestock farming.

A split season does seem like a viable solution.  No doubt the strongest most dominent bulls will make for the healthiest calves, but I don't think you can equate point count directly to dominance especially if you put age disparity into the mix like Guido said.

I am always concerned when wildlife management bases legality on point count though.  It works in a perfect world with responsible hunters, but like we saw with the 3 point or larger mule deer rule years ago, there were problems.  You can't directly blame that one on the wildlife management folks though.
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BullShooter

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Re: 6 point elk zones
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2013, 10:40:27 AM »
Didn’t Dr. Val Geist have an article a few years back that suggested some of the biggest bucks and bulls were inferior breeders (not necessarily inferior genetics) and it was for exactly that reason that they were able to survive the winters and grow their mass?

It seems to me I read the article in Bugle Magazine a few years back and it contradicted a lot of what I would have believed.

I found his observations astonishing and, objectively, they made a lot of sense. Regards, Mike

Lurch

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Re: 6 point elk zones
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2013, 10:45:57 AM »
Didn’t Dr. Val Geist have an article a few years back that suggested some of the biggest bucks and bulls were inferior breeders (not necessarily inferior genetics) and it was for exactly that reason that they were able to survive the winters and grow their mass?

It seems to me I read the article in Bugle Magazine a few years back and it contradicted a lot of what I would have believed.

I found his observations astonishing and, objectively, they made a lot of sense. Regards, Mike

You have that correct Mike.

Less "mojo" meant more of the energy produced went to horn growth or something like that...


BullShooter

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Re: 6 point elk zones
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2013, 11:56:27 AM »
There has been some pretty significant research into elk as of late and I know the results have even surprised some of the involved wildlife biologists. A recent undertaking, The Southwest Montane Elk Study has revealed some pretty amazing migration travels, especially for particular bull elk.

I was told of at least one bull from the Beauvais/Carbondale/Castle herd that migrated south into Montana for the rut. I believe the one-way distance, as the crow flies, was just over 100 kms. Even more remarkable, he returned to southwest Alberta in December and repeated the process the following year. The genetic biodiversity is pretty amazing in these animals.

Bulls from these same herds have also been recorded to migrate north of Chain Lakes. Again, pretty amazing.

I would GUESS… if Dr. Geist’s observations were correct, that these bulls potential would likely be inferior for antler growth but superior for genetics.

So to clearly answer Guido’s question… I don’t have a clue - but luckily there is some current research that may shed additional light on the issue. Regards, Mike

albertadave

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Re: 6 point elk zones
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2013, 05:22:27 PM »
Wow am I ever surprised no one has commented on this!!!! It is a big discussion with a few Bio's and could be a future change to some areas. Thought a few hunters here would have an opinion!!
I have an opinion.  The 6 point rule for elk is just as stupid as the full curl rule for sheep.  That's my opinion.

sheepguide

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Re: 6 point elk zones
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2013, 10:48:04 PM »
Full curl s far better than full draw!!!!!
I hunt sheep to see over the next mountain not to measure the next trophy!

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Sonny

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Re: 6 point elk zones
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2013, 11:05:56 PM »
Full curl s far better than full draw!!!!!

I friggin' hate draws.. >:(

walleyes

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Re: 6 point elk zones
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2013, 07:08:57 AM »
Full curl s far better than full draw!!!!!

And full draw is better than a moratorium !!!

deerman

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Re: 6 point elk zones
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2013, 08:05:26 AM »
Didn’t Dr. Val Geist have an article a few years back that suggested some of the biggest bucks and bulls were inferior breeders (not necessarily inferior genetics) and it was for exactly that reason that they were able to survive the winters and grow their mass?

It seems to me I read the article in Bugle Magazine a few years back and it contradicted a lot of what I would have believed.

I found his observations astonishing and, objectively, they made a lot of sense. Regards, Mike

I don't think Geist said they were "inferior breeders" but the apparently they took a year off from the rut and consequently did not have a hard time overwintering.  While the other bucks of their age and class got warn out during the rut and many would not make it through a tough winter.

The next year the bucks who took the year off were top breeders in great shape.

Given the opportunity I would rather shoot a calf or a spike bull and let the 5 and 6 pointers alone.

sheepguide

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Re: 6 point elk zones
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2013, 08:07:37 AM »
That is very true Walleyes but if every one keeps fighting the small changes It will eventually be pushed to a once in a lifetime draw or worse as you say a complete stop to sheep hunting!

People wouldn't even give up a week of the season. And 90% that fought it have never even hunted sheep the last week in Oct. I guarantee!!!

I hunt sheep to see over the next mountain not to measure the next trophy!

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alkali

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Re: 6 point elk zones
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2013, 08:17:57 AM »
A 2 year old 5 point may have better genetics than an 8 year old 6 point. So # of points doesn't necesarily make for a healthier calf.
Also, a 5 point isn't genetically inferior to a 6 point, just has 1 less point. Doesn't make it less healthy. Just my thoughts. I have been wrong before.
Anyways, back to my question, would the 5 point gene ever wipe out the 6 point in any certain zone. Or would natural migration take care of the abundance of 5 pointers?
I agree with you on this. We prize the 6 point bull as a trophy and weight to many desicions based on that value. The elk not so much! LOL. I was told that there were so many enviromental factors that had far more influence of horn trophy size than genetics that the whole issue of hunters affecting the genetic make up the herd was just a myth.

alkali

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Re: 6 point elk zones
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2013, 08:22:40 AM »
I have an opinion.  The 6 point rule for elk is just as stupid as the full curl rule for sheep.  That's my opinion.
I don't know enough about the elk issue to really be able to say. We all draw on our own experiences and sometimes those can leave us looking pretty stupid.  :)
I do have some serious concerns about the damage that full curl might be doing to our sheep in those full curl zones. I mean have you looked at what shows up a Willow Valley now?! In the beginning we had big old sheep getting whacked in the full curl now we have young midgets! WTF is that about? Or is there more to the equation than the proponents of full curl know?